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04/04/2023 7:00 EDT Miami Heat vs Detroit Pistons


casimir

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As we're nearing the end of the season just want to thank Cas for doing these game threads. It sucks that it was yet another disappointing season so we didnt get much action in the threads but hopefully that will change next year when Cade comes back,  Casey is gone and Wembenyana comes to save the day. 

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"you deserve to relive the best piston tradition of having too many centers in a league that has moved to small, postionless basketball.  that's why i, troy weaver, traded for james wiseman, marvin bagley III, and isaiah stewart.  i promise that i will bring back the time honored tradition of the late joe dumars era.  in wiseman, i believe we finally found our josh smith."

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I think the off-season will be more telling of how they feel about the collection of bigs.  Wiseman was a trade deadline pickup.  Perhaps the long term play is that Bagley was acquired when he was because there was still some untapped potential to try to develop.  And then later on down the line, Wiseman became available, the Pistons feel he’s the better option and want to move on from Bagley, but there wasn’t time to move him at the deadline and want to try to do so in this upcoming offseason.

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2 minutes ago, casimir said:

I think the off-season will be more telling of how they feel about the collection of bigs.  Wiseman was a trade deadline pickup.  Perhaps the long term play is that Bagley was acquired when he was because there was still some untapped potential to try to develop.  And then later on down the line, Wiseman became available, the Pistons feel he’s the better option and want to move on from Bagley, but there wasn’t time to move him at the deadline and want to try to do so in this upcoming offseason.

Hope springs eternal, but I think Weaver is already about 2yr past his sell date.

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Pistons fans (and I know a lot on this board) were screaming for the Pistons to rebuild for years, over a decade really, and that's exactly what Weaver is doing. Not sure why anybody is upset or surprised by this. 

With that said, this offseason needs to be designed around building a WINNING roster. It'll now be the 3rd FULL year of the rebuild, fans are going to start getting sick of hearing about high draft picks pretty soon.

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27 minutes ago, NYLion said:

Pistons fans (and I know a lot on this board) were screaming for the Pistons to rebuild for years, over a decade really, and that's exactly what Weaver is doing. Not sure why anybody is upset or surprised by this. 

With that said, this offseason needs to be designed around building a WINNING roster. It'll now be the 3rd FULL year of the rebuild, fans are going to start getting sick of hearing about high draft picks pretty soon.

were not complaining that they entered a rebuild, we are complaining about how he is managing the rebuild.

at least that's what im complaining about.

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34 minutes ago, casimir said:

I think the off-season will be more telling of how they feel about the collection of bigs.  Wiseman was a trade deadline pickup.  Perhaps the long term play is that Bagley was acquired when he was because there was still some untapped potential to try to develop.  And then later on down the line, Wiseman became available, the Pistons feel he’s the better option and want to move on from Bagley, but there wasn’t time to move him at the deadline and want to try to do so in this upcoming offseason.

i get it, but then why sign bagley to a fairly big contract?  

the only upside for bagley is if his money is used as a throw in to get a better player.  otoh, who is going to want marvin bagley on a deal more than one year long?  

well, other than troy weaver.

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6 minutes ago, buddha said:

i get it, but then why sign bagley to a fairly big contract?  

the only upside for bagley is if his money is used as a throw in to get a better player.  otoh, who is going to want marvin bagley on a deal more than one year long?  

well, other than troy weaver.

Barley’s extension was signed in July, well before Wiseman was acquired.  It’s a poor fit with all of these bigs, no doubt.  I just think the timing of trading for Wiseman might be a bit of caveat in all of this.  If Wiseman is better than Bagley, get him and worry about moving Bagley later on.  Bagley tends to get hurt and Duren is still adjusting to a pro schedule, so there’s where some of the log jam can be alleviated there.

I guess what I am getting at is, increase the talent level, fit isn’t necessarily the priority.  And so, as time goes on, fit becomes an issue, and that can be dealt with at another point.  This season is a lost cause anyway.  Get the skill set and personalities in house, evaluate in person which 1 or 2 of the 2 or 3 bigs not named Duren to keep/move in the off-season.

I’m hoping that’s the case.

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14 minutes ago, buddha said:

were not complaining that they entered a rebuild, we are complaining about how he is managing the rebuild.

at least that's what im complaining about.

Not really directed at you necessarily, I happen to agree with your issue of Weaver's center collecting fetish. It's more of the comments about the letter and getting sick of hearing about high picks.

The reality is that this was only the 2nd FULL season of the rebuild. His first year was basically clearing out the remnants of the SVG era (the Blake buyout was only 2 years ago believe it or not) so he went full rebuild which is what Pistons fans have wanted for a long time. It doesn't mean he hasn't made some mistakes but he's doing exactly what everybody wanted and hasn't made any moves that have crippled the future outside of the busted 2020 draft of course.

I'm not championing him or anything but I don't think it's fair to judge him yet. I think Cade, Ivey, Duren and this draft pick is a nice base to build off of. Now he has to supplement the core with the right players and he has the cap flexibility going forward to do just that so it's just a matter of.... we'll see.

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The rebuild was in trouble from year one when he missed on all three first round picks.

In year three those guys should have been the foundation of the rebuild. They should have been contributing towards winning basketball.  Now one isn't here, one is one of the worst PGs in the league, and the third is questionable in what his future/role is.  That's bad.

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36 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

The rebuild was in trouble from year one when he missed on all three first round picks.

In year three those guys should have been the foundation of the rebuild. They should have been contributing towards winning basketball.  Now one isn't here, one is one of the worst PGs in the league, and the third is questionable in what his future/role is.  That's bad.

and he traded multiple assets to get those picks.  including a future first round pick.

at best, wiseman ends up being a long term starter so you get something for bey and all the assets you traded to get him, killian ends up a decent backup point guard, and stewart is a solid role player off the bench.

unless wiseman can capture some of his hype and become a good player, that draft was a real bust.

conversely, last year's draft of ivey and duren looks like a hit.  i dont see much from livers, honestly.  and cade looked like a superstar some games and a miss in others.  i think he'll come good but im worried about his health.

and again, i get the rebuild and they are doing what they have to do to get the best odds for the #1 pick, but this is THE worst or second worst season in franchise history.  lets not lose sight of just how bad this team is.  

if theyre at least moderately healthy and not in the play in next year, weaver might be in trouble.

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I see good and bad with Weaver and he has a lot to prove over the course of the next year. However, I still see more positive than negative.

Tear Down (Plus) - I absolutely love how he came in here and tore down the garbage in just one season. It's something many of us had been screaming for the franchise to do for years, but so many people on this very message board said it wasn't possible. Weaver didn't play around and got it done. I respect that aggressiveness.

Draft Maneuvering (Plus) - I like how he's maneuvered the drafts with getting extra picks and the picks he's made. Obviously, they haven't all worked out (*cough*Killian*couch*), but getting role players in the second half of the first round of a bad draft (2020) is good work in my eyes. In 2021 he did what he was supposed to do. In 2022 he moved back into the first round and got a steal in Duren at #13. No GM wins on every pick, but I think he's done well overall.

Not Afraid to Take Chances or Cut Ties (Plus) - I like that he's not afraid to move assets that aren't working out. We've had a number of reclamation projects come and go. Even his own draft pick that many fans loved got moved and if you think about it, it means he traded Kennard and some second rounders for the #2 pick in that draft. We have no idea if Wiseman will work out, but I like the aggressiveness and willingness to act before you're stuck. Taking chances on guys that haven't bloomed yet and being ready to cut ties with them is also one of the only ways you can get a star in Detroit outside of the draft.

Fixed the Cap (Plus) - This team was in cap hell when Weaver came in. He's turned that into a very flexible situation with no long term or untradeable albatross contracts. I don't agree with the Bagley signing, but let's no act like 3yr/13M is anything more than an annoyance - it's certainly not some albatross contract.

No Starting Assets (Plus) - This team was in a worse place than an expansion team when Weaver took over. Zero talent and no assets to trade, but we also had a terrible cap situation on top of that. Weaver started from lower than ground zero when he took over. Our biggest name to trade was Dre...and we all know what that was worth. 

Roster Construction (Minus) - The roster hasn't made a bit of sense. We went from zero bigs to too many of them. In a league that's wing dominated we have no wings at all. If the secret goal is to lose a bunch of games so you can get high draft picks, then Weaver is playing some elite level chess here, but I don't think that's the case. It's also stunting the growth of your lead guards who are being put in a bad situation.

Coach Loyalty (Minus) - Casey has to go. If he's still the coach next season that will be a HUGE hit to my view of Weaver. He's a terrible on court strategist, does not run a competent offense or defense, and cannot figure out high school level lineup rotations. On top of that, the thing that people say he does best (player development) is simply false. If anything, he's stunting these players growth by teaching them to play ball the wrong way. The only praise I'll give him is in running a clean locker room even though they're losing.

Baffling Free Agency Moves (Minus) - I'm not sure if it's his aggressiveness biting him in the rear, but some of his free agency moves have been perplexing at best. Paying to give away Plumlee to sign Olynyk? The Bagley deal after you've already drafted Duren, traded for Noel, and have Olynyk? His love for dead cap space? None of this is crippling on a team that's not trying to win yet, but it's still a lot of bad asset management and numerous papercuts can start to add up.


Bottom line, when I break it down I see a lot more positive from him with what he's had to work with than I see negative. That said, he's got a lot to prove this offseason and next year. Regardless of what he inherited when he came in, this is the last season that anyone is going to accept this type of product on the court. I doubt his seat is even warm with ownership, but it's definitely getting there with the fans. If healthy Cade, 2023 draft pick, player growth, and whatever moves Troy makes this offseason don't result in 30 wins next season, I imagine his seat will be getting really hot with the fanbase and probably warm with ownership too.

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3 hours ago, Deleterious said:

The rebuild was in trouble from year one when he missed on all three first round picks.

In year three those guys should have been the foundation of the rebuild. They should have been contributing towards winning basketball.  Now one isn't here, one is one of the worst PGs in the league, and the third is questionable in what his future/role is.  That's bad.

The 2020 draft was a disaster, there's no arguing that, but it's just one draft when it boils down to it. Outside of their 1st that might wind up just conveying to 2nds at this rate or, at worst, a late 1st (which is pretty much Stewart's value anyway), they didn't lose anything that hurts the long term outlook. It sucks wasting a 7th overall pick but the others were mid 1st which now amounted to Wiseman and Stewart which is fine value for those spots.

Ultimately, what's done is done. The core is Cade (needs to stay healthy), Ivey, Duren and hopefully a hit in this draft. It's still a good foundation to work from with the added bonus of cap flexibility to add to the core. The 2020 draft was a setback but it's not a rebuild crippler. I think this thing is still on track highly dependent on Cade staying healthy and progressing.

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