Will Tigers Pony up for Skubal

[Sports_Freak]

1 minute ago, Shelton said:

Good point, please go back and edit your posts to say that Harris made the team better in August and worse in September and did just enough to reach the playoffs for the second year running. We wouldn’t want to leave anything out. 

Nope. Harris will be remembered as the man in charge during a historic collapse in the 2025 standings. He better have 5 "prospects" who have a major positive impact for the next 10 years that justifies his inability to helping and improving a MLB leading record at the trade deadline. Its almost like he was afraid of making any moves.

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, Tenacious D said:

I’ve seen him around downtown Birmingham on occasion (usually the Sunday Farmer’s Market).  Dude has polos and T-shirts in his repertoire, too, but he’s no slave to fashion like DD was.

How often have you seen him?  You a stalker?

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

So, blame Harris 100% for the collapse and give zero credit for the comeback? Got it. Hey, people agree with you.

I give the players, manager and coaches credit for the comeback and blame for the collapse. I dont give Harris credit for the comeback because he did very little to help the team. The same way I blame him for the collapse, he did very little to prevent it. It was his job to give Hinch talented players for success. Harris failed, as has been discussed for months.

[oblong]

16 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

The Tigers divisional collapse of 2025 will be discussed for generations. Any time a team loses a division lead, it will be compared to the 2025 Detroit Tigers.

 

Do you realize that post is as much about Cleveland as it is Detroit?

They surged more than the Tigers collapsed.

[oblong]

14 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I'll remember 2024 more than 2025.  2024 was the most unexpected and remarkable comeback I have ever seen and I hope it does not get forgotten.  The 2025 collapse was really bad, but it's not as memorable because they still made the playoffs at the end.  

Especially since they beat the team that overtook them at the end

[4hzglory]

34 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Nope. Harris will be remembered as the man in charge during a historic collapse in the 2025 standings. He better have 5 "prospects" who have a major positive impact for the next 10 years that justifies his inability to helping and improving a MLB leading record at the trade deadline. Its almost like he was afraid of making any moves.

I personally think the Twins collapse in 2024 was worse because they didn't make the playoffs.  I'm with Shelton, that last year's collapse doesn't bother me as much because we made the playoffs and then beat the team that overtook us in the standings. (With a team Harris constructed)

[4hzglory]

23 minutes ago, oblong said:

Especially since they beat the team that overtook them at the end

I guess I should have read your post before making my reply.

Edited 4 hours ago by 4hzglory

[oblong]

It's all about the psychological mindset of fans.  When a team does well in the beginning fans are conditioned to think "Well, this is the team.  They're good.  We have a good team.  Yay!"  Then when that team doesn't play so well they're "chokers".  If they start off not playing well they're not a good team.  Then they finish strong and they are "Gamers" and have "character" and are "clutch" and "scrappy".

Reminds me of the Bill Burr bit about swearing and referring to race/nationality.  Black people had the genius idea to put the curse word after the description. 

A white person says "I'm just sitting there eating and this ******** Asian walks in..." 

"Hey hey... take it easy... what's the matter with you??"

 

A black person says "I'm just sitting there eating and this Asian ******* walks in...."  

"You don't even hear it...  So many careers could have been saved if we'd just put the curse word after".

So for mediocre teams that barely make the playoffs... win later, not before. 

[1984Echoes]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

So, blame Harris 100% for the collapse ...

He obtained a bunch of ****ty players who were LOSERS, except for Finnegan so... YES.

 

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

... and give zero credit for the comeback? 

He traded away a bunch of veterans and brought up a bunch off AAA'ers after the trade deadline to muddle through the rest of the 2024 season so... YES.

[Sports_Freak]

36 minutes ago, oblong said:

Do you realize that post is as much about Cleveland as it is Detroit?

They surged more than the Tigers collapsed.

The same as the Tigers surge in '24 wouldn't have been possible without the Twins collapse?

[1984Echoes]

4 hours ago, alex said:

We could say that in both instances, after each of the last two seasons trade deadlines ('24 and '25), the exact opposite happened (team Ws and Ls) that Scott Harris was more than likely thinking would happen - as a result of his moves. Think about it.

This.

[Sports_Freak]

40 minutes ago, oblong said:

Especially since they beat the team that overtook them at the end

This is true but the actual divisional collapse will be brought up for generations any time a team loses a division lead. Their future collapse will be compared to the '25 Tigers. Beating Cleveland may or may not be remembered at this future time, mostly Tiger fans (and some Guardian fans) will remember sending Cleveland into their off-season. 

[Tiger337]

4 hours ago, alex said:

We could say that in both instances, after each of the last two seasons trade deadlines ('24 and '25), the exact opposite happened (team Ws and Ls) that Scott Harris was more than likely thinking would happen - as a result of his moves. Think about it.

Harris knew exactly what was going to happen in both cases.  He thinks outside the box.  He plays 3D chess.  The rest of the league is playing checkers.  

[oblong]

6 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

The same as the Tigers surge in '24 wouldn't have been possible without the Twins collapse?

yes.  They went 9-18 in September, in addition to losing 4 of 5 to close out August.  That's what makes these kinds of things so remarkable.

I've always defended the 2009 Tigers a bit for their "collapse".  MN went insane that year to end the year while The Tigers merely lost 4 of 5.  They were 16-12 in September.  THat's not a collapse.  Its a mediocre baseball team.

[Stormin]

20 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

"EX GM"

Jim Bowden and Steve Phillips are former GMs who were  involved in activities while a GM that guaranteed they would never get another GM job.   They both have shows on Sirius XM MLB.

In Bowden's case, he resigned in 2009 when he was part of an FBI investigation into skimming of signing bonus money from Latin American players. Bowden now often criticizes current GMs for not offering record setting contracts, but I am not sure he ever negotiated a big time free agent contract while a GM.

[NorthWoods]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

But the biggest deal he made was trading Flaherty and now he's brought him back two times

Strategery.....he's playing chess..

And some of us saw '24 coming long before others, I provide evidence from my Twitter account:

 

[KL2]

So, any Sukbal news?

[CMRivdogs]

1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said:

The Tigers divisional collapse of 2025 will be discussed for generations. Any time a team loses a division lead, it will be compared to the 2025 Detroit Tigers.

 

At least they weren't the 1964 Phillies, blowing a 61/2 game lead with 12 games left. Of course there wasn't divisions or Wild Cards in those bad old days

[Stormin]

1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said:

Nope. Harris will be remembered as the man in charge during a historic collapse in the 2025 standings. He better have 5 "prospects" who have a major positive impact for the next 10 years that justifies his inability to helping and improving a MLB leading record at the trade deadline. Its almost like he was afraid of making any moves.

Jim Campbell was GM/President of the Tigers for 30 years and what I remember most are the two years the Tigers won a post season series (1968 and 1984).   The Tigers have won a post season series in 2 of the 3 years Scott Harris has been a GM.

In the long run, Harris/Hinch will be be judged collectively by how often they make the post season and if the Tigers win in the post season.  I really doubt details like first half vs second half records, players inherited or obtained, and even specific trade deadline deals will mean much in the long run.  If the Tigers continue to make the post season with some regularity, Harris and Hinch will be here a long time.  If the Tigers are absent from the post season for an extended period, Harris/Hinch will be fired.

As far as spending, I would think most GMs will spend as much money as the owner allows.

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, Stormin said:

Jim Campbell was GM/President of the Tigers for 30 years and what I remember most are the two years the Tigers won a post season series (1968 and 1984).   The Tigers have won a post season series in 2 of the 3 years Scott Harris has been a GM.

In the long run, Harris/Hinch will be be judged collectively by how often they make the post season and if the Tigers win in the post season.  I really doubt details like first half vs second half records, players inherited or obtained, and even specific trade deadline deals will mean much in the long run.  If the Tigers continue to make the post season with some regularity, Harris and Hinch will be here a long time.  If the Tigers are absent from the post season for an extended period, Harris/Hinch will be fired.

As far as spending, I would think most GMs will spend as much money as the owner allows.

 I mostly agree, but a very large number of fans only remember championships.  So, ultimately, they will be judged by those fans on whether they win the World Series, not just playoffs.  

[buddha]

3 hours ago, Shelton said:

What about Finnegan?
 

Logic also dictates that you have to consider who else would have had to have been in their position in those starts, and who would have had to backfill if they weren’t there. 
 

The point is that just because the team performed worse doesn’t mean he made the team worse, which is a point being made repeatedly in here. With the buffer they had, merely limiting the damage is still a positive relative to the baseline. 
 

Let’s not forget that they also struggled on each side of the all-star break, so it’s not like they had some well-oiled machine that he threw a wrench into by adding Charlie Morton.
 

how did adding paddack and morton NOT make the team worse?

what were the stats of the guys they replaced?  and what were the stats of the guys they could have traded for but didnt?  you'd have to know both of those.

it appears harris has set up an organization that has done well in creating an environment to develop young players.  that means a lot.  in the long run, that will be more important than short term success in qualifying for the wild card two years in a row.

but his trade deadline moves hurt the team.  youre straining credulity by saying paddack and morton didnt hurt the overall results.

[Tenacious D]

1 hour ago, KL2 said:

So, any Sukbal news?

I really hope that’s a typo for now.  We’ll call him that when he spurns us for another team next year.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

how did adding paddack and morton NOT make the team worse?

what were the stats of the guys they replaced?  and what were the stats of the guys they could have traded for but didnt?  you'd have to know both of those.

it appears harris has set up an organization that has done well in creating an environment to develop young players.  that means a lot.  in the long run, that will be more important than short term success in qualifying for the wild card two years in a row.

but his trade deadline moves hurt the team.  youre straining credulity by saying paddack and morton didnt hurt the overall results.

I think they replaced Melton and Keider Montero.  

[IdahoBert]

2 hours ago, KL2 said:

So, any Sukbal news?

Not at all. We’re not discussing Skubal at all. All Skubal news is on the ninth floor in the Twilight Zone. 

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, Stormin said:

Jim Campbell was GM/President of the Tigers for 30 years and what I remember most are the two years the Tigers won a post season series (1968 and 1984).   The Tigers have won a post season series in 2 of the 3 years Scott Harris has been a GM.

In the long run, Harris/Hinch will be be judged collectively by how often they make the post season and if the Tigers win in the post season.  I really doubt details like first half vs second half records, players inherited or obtained, and even specific trade deadline deals will mean much in the long run.  If the Tigers continue to make the post season with some regularity, Harris and Hinch will be here a long time.  If the Tigers are absent from the post season for an extended period, Harris/Hinch will be fired.

As far as spending, I would think most GMs will spend as much money as the owner allows.

In 2036, when Baltimore blows a 10 game divisional lead, the entire baseball world will say it's the 2nd biggest collapse sine the Detroit Tigers of 2025. They wont talk about Scott Harris, the manager or the Tigers GM from last century.