Motown Bombers Posted June 24 Posted June 24 2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: no - you're the one obsessing on only part of the message. Why you think those white kids are radicalized, it's because their sense of justice is insulted, sure by Gaza, but also by Elon Musk, Bezos, AI, and the fact that their college degree are devalued. It's ALWAYS been the young middle class kid who have wanted to overthrow the 'system' in all its features, economic, social et al. Who do think populated Haight-Ashbury and went to Woodstock. None of this is new. What was their economic message? They are populist like Trump using antisemitic tropes. They campaigned on Gaza and AIPAC. They didn’t campaign on Musk or Bezos. These aren’t poor kids who voted for these people. They are white people who were able to afford the most expensive parts of New York and push out minorities. Wild you say I’m condescending and you speak as an authority when you aren’t even paying to attention to who’s supporting these extremists and what their campaign message is. Quote
Motown Bombers Posted June 24 Posted June 24 (edited) 12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: no - you're the one obsessing on only part of the message. Why you think those white kids are radicalized, it's because their sense of justice is insulted, sure by Gaza, but also by Elon Musk, Bezos, AI, and the fact that their college degree are devalued. It's ALWAYS been the young middle/upper class kids who have wanted to overthrow the 'system' in all its features, economic, social et al. Who do think populated Haight-Ashbury and went to Woodstock and 'supported' Che Guevara. None of this is new. If you want young progressives to be less looney, give them something better to support than the gerontocracy that got us where we are today. Dan Goldman is only 50. These same people support 85 year old Bernie Sanders and 80 year old Ed Markey. It has nothing to do with the gerontocracy. Ladner is 7 years older than Goldman BTW. Edited June 24 by Motown Bombers Quote
pfife Posted June 24 Posted June 24 LOL DSA has no economic message is a hilarious argument. G2 should just declare victory Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 24 Posted June 24 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: What was their economic message? They are populist like Trump using antisemitic tropes. They campaigned on Gaza and AIPAC. They didn’t campaign on Musk or Bezos. These aren’t poor kids who voted for these people. They are white people who were able to afford the most expensive parts of New York and push out minorities. Wild you say I’m condescending and you speak as an authority when you aren’t even paying to attention to who’s supporting these extremists and what their campaign message is. And they don't really know anymore about Hamas than the 60's kids did about the Maoist revolutionaries they thought were cool. I'm not arguing facts with you here, only that this is some kind of new and different thing. It's the same kind of thing that has always gone on. Radicals have always used injustice unaddressed by the current power structure to try to insinuate themselves - esp to those with the inclination and "leisure time" to pay attention. The question is what to do beside bitch about it? You can only address it by getting your mainstream folks to start paying more attention to why they are losing the support of those people - and that's where all I see you arguing for is the same old same old, and that's what got us here. Edited June 24 by gehringer_2 1 Quote
Motown Bombers Posted June 24 Posted June 24 Just now, gehringer_2 said: And they don't really know anymore about Hamas than the 60's kids did about the Maoist revolutionaries they thought were cool. I'm not arguing facts with you here, only that this is some kind of new and different thing. It's the same kind of thing that has always gone on. Radicals have always used injustice unaddressed by the current power structure to try to insinuate themselves. The question is what to do beside bitch about it? You can only address it by getting your mainstream folks to start paying more attention to why they are losing the support of those people. You can call out the extremism when you see it for what is it. It’s antisemitism and not this kids will be kids you are pushing. It’s the left version of MAGA and mainstream Dems are capitulating to it. Quote
pfife Posted June 24 Posted June 24 Its not maga and mainstream dems are losing to it by 30 pts. Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 24 Posted June 24 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: It’s the left version of MAGA absolutely, because people of all previous persuasions are frustrated with a system that doesn't work anymore and ready to break he china. It's not good when people get there, but they have. 16 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: and mainstream Dems are capitulating to it you lose me here. The mainstream have not capitulated, they are running against it in all these races - mainstream capitulation is not the problem, losing elections is the problem. You lose elections for lack of a more appealing message. I'm really not at all persuaded that lower Manhattan and LI are suddenly hot beds of anti-semitism. You can believe that, I simply do not see that as in any way credible. Depressing but a more reasonable analysis is that Israel has lost the support and in fact gained the opposition, of the younger generation of liberal American Jews - which is a hot topic of survey work. Edited June 24 by gehringer_2 Quote
romad1 Posted June 24 Posted June 24 I'm familiar with a concept called "persuasion" as a vital part of policy formulation and political organization. MB, you should try some. 2 Quote
Motown Bombers Posted June 24 Posted June 24 10 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: absolutely, because people of all previous persuasions are frustrated with a system that doesn't work anymore and ready to break he china. It's not good when people get there, but they have. you lose me here. The mainstream have not capitulated, they are running against it in all these races - mainstream capitulation is not the problem, losing elections is the problem. You lose elections for lack of a more appealing message. I'm really not at all persuaded that lower Manhattan and LI are suddenly hot beds of anti-semitism. You can believe that, I simply do not see that as in any way credible. Depressing but a more reasonable analysis is that Israel has lost the support and in fact gained the opposition, of the younger generation of liberal American Jews - which is a hot topic of survey work. Mainstream Dems are literally endorsing a Nazi. The same Dems who pushed a loyal and progressive president off the ticket. It's unfortunate you can't see it. AIPAC is the stand in for Jew. It follows the Jewish trope that Jews are shadowy figures that control the world. El-Sayed for example receives millions in PAC money from people that are directly opposed to what he campaigns on but it doesn't matter because it doesn't come from a Jew. We have elected officials who say from the river to the sea and globalize the intifada. Quote
Motown Bombers Posted June 24 Posted June 24 2 minutes ago, romad1 said: I'm familiar with a concept called "persuasion" as a vital part of policy formulation and political organization. MB, you should try some. Is that what you did to stop MAGA from taking over your party? Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 24 Posted June 24 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Mainstream Dems are literally endorsing a Nazi. who are you calling mainstream here? Bernie and AOC or Schumer/Goldman, or both? Edited June 24 by gehringer_2 Quote
Motown Bombers Posted June 24 Posted June 24 Just now, gehringer_2 said: who are you calling mainstream here? Bernie or Schumer? Elizabeth Warren, Chris Murphy, Ruben Gallego, Tina Smith, and Martin Heinrich off the top of my head. Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 24 Posted June 24 9 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: AIPAC is the stand in for Jew Disagree. AIPAC is the stand in for the Netanyahu gov. If we disagree on this point then there you have the exact dichotomy in a nutshell and we understand each other. 2 1 Quote
Motown Bombers Posted June 24 Posted June 24 Just now, gehringer_2 said: Disagree. AIPAC is the stand in for the Netanyahu gov. If we disagree on this point then there you have the exact dichotomy in a nutshell and we understand each other. This sums it up better than I could. Quote
romad1 Posted June 24 Posted June 24 9 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Is that what you did to stop MAGA from taking over your party? My decade in the wilderness is well documented here. I'm still here and I'm still espousing a set of policies i agree with. I don't have a party RN but I hope my policies remain foundation for a stable democracy, and I can see when change is necessary and I can support those changes I agree with. Gimme free trade, collective security, freedom of ideas, the rule of law and the Atlantic Charter. Screw dictatorships. Screw oligarchs. Quote
Motown Bombers Posted June 24 Posted June 24 1 minute ago, romad1 said: My decade in the wilderness is well documented here. I'm still here and I'm still espousing a set of policies i agree with. I don't have a party RN but I hope my policies remain foundation for a stable democracy, and I can see when change is necessary and I can support those changes I agree with. Gimme free trade, collective security, freedom of ideas, the rule of law and the Atlantic Charter. Screw dictatorships. Screw oligarchs. I have a set of policies I agree with. In fact, they probably line up well with Bernie Sanders. We have moved past the point where you win on policy. Biden was the most progressive president since Johnson and it didn't matter. I'm not sacrificing Jews or blacks or whoever to reach these ends. The Democratic Party is moving towards a populism that brought us Trump. Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 24 Posted June 24 (edited) Trying to use a charge of anti-semitism as a club against anyone who opposes the current Israeli government is a losing argument with most of the US public anymore, particularly when so many American Jews don't agree with Netanyahu either. Israel's conduct is not a matter of tropes and shadow signals, it's a matter of a lot dead bodies. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/04/07/negative-views-of-israel-netanyahu-continue-to-rise-among-americans-especially-young-people/ Ultimately, a solution to this issue in the US Democratic Party lies in a change in government in Israel, and Netanyahu has been disappointingly resilient. Edited June 24 by gehringer_2 1 Quote
romad1 Posted June 24 Posted June 24 Just now, gehringer_2 said: Trying to use a charge of anti-semitism as a club against anyone who opposes the current Israeli government is a losing argument with most of the US public anymore, particularly when so many American Jews don't agree with Netanyahu either. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/04/07/negative-views-of-israel-netanyahu-continue-to-rise-among-americans-especially-young-people/ Ultimately, a solution to this issue in the US Democratic Party lies in a change in government in Israel, and Netanyahu has been disappointingly resilient. It might work on some but its an act that has worn thin. Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 24 Posted June 24 9 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: The Democratic Party is moving towards a populism that brought us Trump. you are approaching a terrible but mostly unspoken truth - any party that is going to win an election has to accept that its voters may not be all they wish they were. Quote
Motown Bombers Posted June 24 Posted June 24 I can see how MAGA took over the Republican Party. Dems are just accepting now of Nazis, domestic abusers, terrorist sympathizers and Putin supporters. It's chalked up to kids will be kids, some sort of rebellion against the man. When I was young I rebelled by voting for John Kerry. Times have changed I guess. Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 24 Posted June 24 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: MAGA isn't racist, it's just economic anxiety. It's both, why should that need to be a matter of debate? Quote
romad1 Posted June 24 Posted June 24 One of my biggest triggers politically are bullies. Obviously, dictators and oligarchs fit into this category. Run your country as a way to avoid prison and drag the US into a disastrous war that wrecks the global economy. I dislike you. Quote
Motown Bombers Posted June 24 Posted June 24 Just now, gehringer_2 said: It's both, why should that need to be a matter of debate? Because you're not going to win over MAGA voters with an economic message. It's the same thing that is happening in the Democratic Party. Quote
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