ewsieg Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: In term of actual evidence BTW, one of the initial arguments that gave the lab outbreak theory legs has to do with specific genetic sequences seen in the virus that supposedly are only created in the lab. David Baltimore, a highly respected virologist was an early advocate of this position. Further research has now shown that that supposition was wrong and many wild strain viruses with these sequences have now been found so people like Baltimore have retracted their arguments. Science moves from hypothesis to test to reformulation and new hypothesis, but once something gets into the American social media miasma, it lives forever. TL,DR version is that this science at the boundaries of knowledge and uncertainty is the general rule and modesty about being "right" is advisable. The initial argument was Trump calling it the China virus and pointing out a major lab is in Wuhan that studies coronaviruses. It was mocked, in part because outside of happenstance, no other initial evidence, plus Trump was saying it so everyone wanted him to be wrong. I heard stuff early on going back and forth as well, but it didn't take long for a united front that this was definitely not man-made became all you saw in the media, in part because, initially that's probably what people thought. We now have plenty of circumstantial evidence, combined with some researchers that are admitting, at minimum, it should be re-analyzed. To the point that the Biden administration agreed it's a credible theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 7 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: The Spanish Flu started in Kansas lol! Wait... Are you saying the UNITED STATES started a pandemic that caused MILLIONS (80 million was it?) lost lives?!?! Archie thinks we should NUKE OURSELVES!!! THAT will teach us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 1 minute ago, ewsieg said: The initial argument was Trump calling it the China virus and ... plus Trump was saying it so everyone wanted him to be wrong.... Trump was saying it because he's a bigoted MF'ing scumbag and he wanted to LAY BLAME on someone else, hiding his completely IDIOTIC RESPONSE to the pandemic. THAT's why he kept saying "China Virus". Everyone KNEW it came from Wuhan China... just had the DECENCY to not be so XENOPHOBIC about it. And NOONE was trying to prove otherwise (that it didn't come from Wuhan) just as a spite to Trump. That's complete and total BS. And oh yeah, his constant referral to it as the "China virus" caused MULTIPLE Asian-Americans to be BEATEN because of his assholery. Just setting the record straight here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: And again... this is Communist China. They are going to hide the truth. Xi will be too embarrassed to accept the truth. Too protective of his Communist Party to admit the truth. Will create "rumors" that it was actually started in a U.S. military lab (thoroughly debunked...), etc. So my question(s) are: What are your REALISTIC expectations for a resolution to this? As a simple response to your question, don’t you believe it would be wise to at least identify a cause and reason for the sake of preventing a recurrence? Your initial paragraph is spot on. To this end, there is ample reason to want to understand in full what occurred and do whatever is possible to prevent a repeat of this. Even minor occupational accident that injures a person or even damages property requires a thorough investigation and report defining how it happened and what steps are being taken to prevent a recurrence. This virus is the reason for millions of lost lives across many countries. Wouldn’t it be responsible, at a minimum, to pursue the reasons contributing to how this happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted November 5, 2021 Author Share Posted November 5, 2021 You know this started because China is threatening a major trading partner of the United States and our regional allies need us to stand up to China. Either we have collective security or hang it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 9 minutes ago, 1776 said: As a simple response to your question, don’t you believe it would be wise to at least identify a cause and reason for the sake of preventing a recurrence? ... Of course this is reasonable. It's what any responsible nation would want to do.. and there are a lot of responsible nations on this planet. But what I am saying is that China is not a responsible/ ethical nation and therefore we've been stonewalled by them in ascertaining cause and possible preventive methods (unable to do so unless the root cause can be studied) so... What exactly can we do about it? Nothing. Or... go to war? Obsess over it? I mean seriously... How about we do what we CAN do... Ostracize China (can only go so far). Criticize them (this should be harsh and, not unending, but never let the world forget...). Create a NATO-like grouping of like-Democracy/ Responsible/ Ethical nations/ countries that side with the U.S. economically, politically, and militarily. You know... like the TPP that Trump trashed and then a year later BEGGED to get back into... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 32 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Trump was saying it because he's a bigoted MF'ing scumbag and he wanted to LAY BLAME on someone else, hiding his completely IDIOTIC RESPONSE to the pandemic. THAT's why he kept saying "China Virus". Everyone KNEW it came from Wuhan China... just had the DECENCY to not be so XENOPHOBIC about it. And NOONE was trying to prove otherwise (that it didn't come from Wuhan) just as a spite to Trump. That's complete and total BS. And oh yeah, his constant referral to it as the "China virus" caused MULTIPLE Asian-Americans to be BEATEN because of his assholery. Just setting the record straight here... What record straightening did you achieve here other than try and change the course of this conversation. I didn't defend Trump. That said, when I beat up my british co-worker because of the UK variant, note the courts didn't let me blame the media for talking about it, they said I had to deal with the consequences of my own actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 1 hour ago, 1776 said: In other words, you don’t have any idea why. We all know exactly where this started. China is going to stonewall and there's nothing we can do about it. So if China needs to be criticized, don't criticize them for having started the virus... Criticize them for not being open and honest and for stonewalling (I should have included that earlier... if this is your point, I agree with it. Just not the "China is to BLAME" criticism... we've started a few of our own pandemics so I don't like this part of the blame game...) But I am on-board for criticizing their lack of openness/ honesty/ ethics, etc... Although that also... only goes so far in effectiveness. I'd rather move on to more substantial measures... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 1 minute ago, ewsieg said: What record straightening did you achieve here ... You SPECIFICALLY stated that Trump calling it the China Virus was mocked because everyone wanted him to be wrong. Look at you post just up above. BS. Let's set the record straight... (I GAVE you the EXACT reasons why your statement is BS) It was criticized specifically because it was xenophobic (leading to multiple Asian-Americans getting beaten) and he did that to try to HIDE his idiotic response to the pandemic (no such thing, it will just go away, pretty soon, like a miracle, there will be zero cases, just use bleach, or shine a light up your ass, or use some BS home remedy, but DON'T WEAR A MASK)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 That's called setting the record straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: You SPECIFICALLY stated that Trump calling it the China Virus was mocked because everyone wanted him to be wrong. Look at you post just up above. BS. Let's set the record straight... (I GAVE you the EXACT reasons why your statement is BS) It was criticized specifically because it was xenophobic (leading to multiple Asian-Americans getting beaten) and he did that to try to HIDE his idiotic response to the pandemic (no such thing, it will just go away, pretty soon, like a miracle, there will be zero cases, just use bleach, or shine a light up your ass, or use some BS home remedy, but DON'T WEAR A MASK)... That's called changing the subject or simply not being able to discuss anything that can possibly be related back to Trump without GETTING REALLY MAD AND AARRRRGGHHHH!!!!. He called it the China virus. Possibly the right thing to do, if history indicates how to name something; Spanish flu, UK variant, Indian variant, Ebola, Lyme disease..... With Trumps tone and rhetoric, I agree with you though. My point wasn't about that though, Trump indicated it could have come from lab. The response to anything Trump said in the last 6 years has been to vehemently disagree. From an odds standpoint, it's the best call. Doesn't mean it's always right though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, ewsieg said: ... My point wasn't about that though, Trump indicated it could have come from lab.... There was no disagreement with that. By anyone. Ever. (Wait.. except for the Chinese Administration which did everything they could to deflect... but they don't count.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 3 hours ago, ewsieg said: No offense, but are you kidding me? Again, i'm not saying it was a lab leak, but to call it foolishness is equally to far. no offense taken but I didn't say the question was foolishness, I said some of what is taken as serious evidence is foolishness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 47 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: no offense taken but I didn't say the question was foolishness, I said some of what is taken as serious evidence is foolishness. That’s the GOP playbook. Make a reasonable charge. Play it up, exaggerate, and add on a lot of foolishness and other idiocy and when that is criticized play a victim on the reasonable issue to paint the critics as bullies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: no offense taken but I didn't say the question was foolishness, I said some of what is taken as serious evidence is foolishness. That can be said about anything. When the lab leak theory was thrown into the same bucket as 'stolen election' and 'clinton child sex trafficking' and me merely pointing out it shouldn't be met with virulent disdain for Trump like i'm trying to defend him, that's silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 5 minutes ago, ewsieg said: That can be said about anything. When the lab leak theory was thrown into the same bucket as 'stolen election' and 'clinton child sex trafficking'... That one I would agree with you. That was unwarranted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 2 hours ago, oblong said: That’s the GOP playbook. Make a reasonable charge. Play it up, exaggerate, and add on a lot of foolishness and other idiocy and when that is criticized play a victim on the reasonable issue to paint the critics as bullies. I don't understand this response. Is this just a generalized 'I hate the GOP' response, or is it pointed at me? If it is pointed at me, what did I exaggerate? What foolishness did I add? Do you really believe that the lab leak theory belongs in the same bucket as "stolen" election, clinton child sex trafficking, and russian collusion..... oh wait, you believe that last one, based on a few reasonable charges, played up, exaggerated, with a lot of foolishness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 (edited) This has really hit a button with you. I came really close to throwing in covid cell towers or DNA changing vaccines instead. All are baseless claims used to incite just like the lab leak. Edited November 6, 2021 by Hongbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted November 6, 2021 Author Share Posted November 6, 2021 Again....the core of this thread https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2021/11/how-war-china-begins/186522/ China is gunning for a democracy which is critical to the World economy and threatens several others which are also critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 9 hours ago, romad1 said: Again....the core of this thread https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2021/11/how-war-china-begins/186522/ China is gunning for a democracy which is critical to the World economy and threatens several others which are also critical. Nuke 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted November 6, 2021 Author Share Posted November 6, 2021 2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Nuke 'em. Well, that would suck for property value in major metropolitan areas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted November 6, 2021 Author Share Posted November 6, 2021 Armed deterrence in a collective security alliance like that in S. Korea and W. Germany would do nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, romad1 said: Well, that would suck for property value in major metropolitan areas On a more serious note... Permanently place an American carrier or battleship group at Port (Kaohsiung? Or at a lesser, less commercial port?) in Taiwan. Rotating one group out only as a new group enters Port at essentially the same time. Also, station 5,000 rotating, semi-permanent American training cadre on the island. Anti-aircraft/ Air Force, etc... China likes to preemptively lash out... Let's give them a target and say "go ahead". I'll call their bluff (-ing language and behavior towards Taiwan over the past 6 months or so...). Edited November 6, 2021 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, romad1 said: Armed deterrence in a collective security alliance like that in S. Korea and W. Germany would do nice Plus this. We've already increased cooperation with India, Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, Philippines, etc... Keep pushing the collective economic and security options in the area... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted November 8, 2021 Author Share Posted November 8, 2021 hmmm...this is interesting https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/taiwan-eu-11052021103137.html China: Sorry to scare the shit out of everyone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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