Phillies “Working On A Trade” For Gregory Soto

[Edman85]

Trading a reliever while he has value before he gets expensive for three bats is a win. Clemens is immaterial; he sucks.

Between Harris specifically citing a LH infielder and RH outfielder earlier, and Clemens surviving many roster purges he had no business surviving, I have a feeling this trade has been close to done for a while.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Edman85

[Edman85]

20 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Any chance they give Maton reps at 3B? Generally been at 2B and SS, but he has a couple of outings in his past at third

I'd have to think so. I can't speak to his arm strength, but I'm betting his lack of time coming through the ranks at 3B is a direct result of playing next to Bohm.

[Longgone]

27 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Maybe not, but do you call him a major leaguer with a 648 OPS and negative WAR?

I doubt I'm going to mourn Soto's loss but I'm having trouble seeing how any of these guys do much for us either.

Both are excellent defensive players, and I wouldn't solidify anyone's ceiling based on the initial major league stats.

Now re-sign Chafin.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Longgone

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Trading a reliever while he has value before he gets expensive for three bats is a win. Clemens is immaterial; he sucks.

Between Harris specifically citing a LH infielder and RH outfielder earlier, and Clemens surviving many roster purges he had no business surviving, I have a feeling this trade has been close to done for a while.

Does this mean Zach Short is gonna be shipped out soon???

(Only somewhat joking)

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, Longgone said:

Both are excellent defensive players, and I wouldn't solidify anyone's ceiling based on the initial major league stats.

For sure.

And given some of the names that have been bandied about (ie. Wil Myers, Brandon Drury), there's an argument that it's more useful to give ABs to these guys who may still improve upon their initial MLB numbers and are controllable for a while longer versus those other guys who are here for 1-2 years tops and (if we are lucky) could be worth a lottery ticket in a trade down the road.

Soto and Clemens seems like a fair price to pay on that... I take G2's point that he's a MLB player, but he's a reliever and his been inconsistent throughout his career, with not great peripherals either. Not sure they were gonna get more here.

Edited January 7, 2023 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, Longgone said:

Both are excellent defensive players, and I wouldn't solidify anyone's ceiling based on the initial major league stats.

Now re-sign Chafin.

they are all too old to have much unrealized upside.

[gehringer_2]

27 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Yes.

But it's for Gregory Soto and Kody Clemens lol... for those two players, getting players who can be useful on the 2023 Detroit Tigers seems like a win. Even if they aren't necessarily longer term pieces.

correct. This deal is pretty much a nothing burger. Deck chair re-arrange on the Titanic as we used to say.

[RatkoVarda]

5. Matt Vierling, CF (2022)

Drafted: 5th Round, 2018 from Notre Dame (PHI)

Age	25.3	Height	6′ 3″	Weight	205	Bat / Thr	R / R	FV	45

Tool Grades (Present/Future)

Hit	Raw Power	Game Power	Run	Fielding	Throw
50/50	55/55	40/40	50/50	40/45	45

A 2018 fifth rounder out of Notre Dame, Vierling hit .324/.364/.479 in 34 games with Philly last season while playing four different positions. He could be in line for lots of 2022 at-bats as a righty-hitting complement to the lefty-hitting outfielders projected toward the bottom of Philly’s lineup (former first rounders Mickey Moniak, Adam Haseley). Beware of hitter-friendly Reading, though. Vierling had an OPS over 1.000 there, where lots of former Phillies position player prospects have overperformed because of the hitting environment, and Vierling was doing so at age 24; he hit .248/.331/.359 later in the year at Triple-A. He’s similar in many ways to former notable Phillies prospect Cameron Perkins, another Day Two pick from a Midwest college (Purdue) who hit in the upper minors and had a cup of coffee with multiple big league clubs. Some teams think Vierling can play a passable center field as part of his multi-positional suite, however, which is a meaningful separator. His name was floated in some pre-lockout trade rumors, with Philly ultimately backing away from a deal because they didn’t want to move him. He’s poised to be a lefty-killing, multi-positional role player in 2022.

[RatkoVarda]

16. Nick Maton, SS (2021)

Video

Drafted: 7th Round, 2017 from Lincoln Land JC (IL) (PHI)

Age	24.0	Height	6′ 2″	Weight	178	Bat / Thr	L / R	FV	40

Tool Grades (Present/Future)

Hit	Raw Power	Game Power	Run	Fielding	Throw
35/40	45/45	40/45	55/55	50/50	60

Maton’s is a very interesting defensive and statistical profile. He’s a lefty bat who can play both middle infield spots (and began playing some third base in 2019), he walks (10% career rate), and he hits the ball in the air a ton (33% career groundball rate), which will help him max out his in-game power. He’s also performed at every stop and checks a lot of visual athletic boxes. But the raw power and barrel control are lacking. Maton needs to hunt the right pitches to do damage. I think he’ll do that and be a power-over-hit bench infielder

[Tigeraholic1]

 

[mtutiger]

3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

correct. This deal is pretty much a nothing burger. Deck chair re-arrange on the Titanic as we used to say.

Deck chairs on the Titanic would have been trading Soto for pitching lol

[mtutiger]

Vierling's Savant Page:

 

A lotta red on there....

Edited January 7, 2023 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

Don’t tell Lee but Cody has gone all in on Statcast cards … 😉💀

 

[chasfh]

It’s a little weird how red Vierling’s average EV number is but how blue his barrel rate is. I’m not sure what to take from that.

That poor jump and great arm screams right field.

[gehringer_2]

8 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Deck chairs on the Titanic would have been trading Soto for pitching lol

true. Vierling is a good fit so as long as some other arms hold up the pen it should be plus trade on balance.

[gehringer_2]

Just now, chasfh said:

It’s a little weird how red Vierling’s average EV number is but how blue his barrel rate is. I’m not sure what to take from that.

That poor jump and great arm screams right field.

also interesting that in the highlight reel he has two different stances - at some point in the season he either opened or closed his stance.

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

also interesting that in the highlight reel he has two different stances - at some point in the season he either opened or closed his stance.

Maybe the thing to take from the disparity is that a tweak might help him square up the ball more consistently. Vierling can be one of Brdar’s top projects this spring. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by chasfh

[gehringer_2]

well, one thing we can say, Harris may like to take more risk, but he has little taste for risky relievers like Soto and Jimenez.

😱

[Jim Cowan]

Mason and Vierling look like useful guys.

Tigers:  Will you take Clemens?

Phillies:  Only if you take Sands.

[RatkoVarda]

nice trade. Clemens is nothing. Soto, who knows?

you get 2 guys who will at least contribute something (maybe 3 guys) in the majors and, like Malloy, seem on paper to have some skills Harris claims he wants.

this is right:

21 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

there's an argument that it's more useful to give ABs to these guys who may still improve upon their initial MLB numbers and are controllable for a while longer versus those other guys who are here for 1-2 years tops and (if we are lucky) could be worth a lottery ticket in a trade down the road.

 

[Longgone]

21 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

they are all too old to have much unrealized upside.

Physically, sure, developing as a major leaguer, not at all.

[chasfh]

59 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

If DD ever had a weakness, it was for questionable RPs!

I was wondering whether and how Avila might have made this trade were he here. Since Dombrowski is on the other side, the trade might well have been made in the first place. I could see Avila sending Soto and either Klemens or Kreidler in exchange for Edmundo Sosa, Proven Major Leaguer, and a couple of flyer pitchers from down the system, perhaps someone like Jayden Astanista and … oh, I don’t know, maybe Mike Adams.

OK, enough of that pointless speculation … we return you to your actual trade discussion already in progress …

 

[casimir]

Tears of joy for just getting rid of Soto.  What a completely overrated "electric" arm.

[chasfh]

7 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Mason and Vierling look like useful guys.

Tigers:  Will you take Clemens?

Phillies:  Only if you take Sands.

As a throw-in, we could have done a lot worse than Donny Sands. He’s shown really good plate discipline with some pop, and had a .413 on base at AAA Lehigh last year.

[gehringer_2]

39 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Trading a reliever while he has value before he gets expensive for three bats is a win. Clemens is immaterial; he sucks.

Though more true for Jimenez than Soto. Willingness to move Soto makes me think they probably did offer him to Atlanta, which I wondered about at the time.