It's a DETROIT thing.

[romad1]

1 minute ago, oblong said:

I mean.... if you want 50,000 people at Ford Field and 18,000 and LCA and an event at the Fox... where do you want them to park?  Don't say Mass Transit because that's just not an option for the extreme majority of people.

Anytime there's a big event at Ford Field whether it's a concert or Football game and something else is going on at the same time... it's a zoo.  

I used to enjoy parking off the Silverdome and riding a bus into the place on a special route.  That made the experience a lot easier.   Gimme a metro station at the corner of 6 and middlebelt that could take me to a baseball game and back and i'll bet real estate prices at 6 and middlebelt would skyrocket. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

51 minutes ago, romad1 said:

if they are a crime family, they are an exceptionally boring crime family.    Not that i want eccentric crime families running my sports teams 

If you're on Facebook checkout the Terrible Ilitches Facebook page. They do a great job as anyone documenting the Ilitches destructive business practices. There are many, many terrible and destructive business practices that come from the Ilitches and Ilitch Family Holdings. Among them are the destruction of historic buildings to build parking lots and/or the neglect of historic buildings without renovation plans. Not to mention all of the taxpayer subsidies they get from one of the poorest cities in America to either demolish a building or rehab it. Note, they have rehabbed ONE BUILDING, the Eddystone Hotel, in 30 years. One building in 30 years!

Click here for a full list of demolished/neglected historic buildings, and parking lots owned by the Ilitches. This is just a sampling of the destruction and neglect from the Ilitches of historic buildings downtown:

• The Alhambra building (neglected)
• Chin Tiki restaurant (demolished)
• Detroit Saturday Night building (demolished)
• Downtown Detroit YMCA (demolished)
• The Fine Arts building and Adams Theater (demolished)
• Hotel Vermont (demolished)
• Hotel Wolverine (demolished)
• Lafayette Building (demolished)
• Madison-Lenox Hotel (demolished)
• Park Plaza Motor Hotel (demolished)
• Temple Hotel (demolished)
• The Statler building (demolished)
• United Arts Theater (neglected)

Edited February 15, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Mr.TaterSalad]

34 minutes ago, oblong said:

I go back and forth on the mass of parking lots we now see in their "District Detroit".  Aesthetically it looks bad obviously.  They promised development.  But when I go to a game or a concert at the Fillmore or Fox, they are pretty convenient.  I grew to like the ability to book a spot ahead of time.  I don't mind walking and will pick a spot a half mile away if it's $8 instead of $30 closer.  Not a fan of parking structures and the congestion they provide. 

They now want to do some development work on the lots on Woodward in front of Comerica Park, and on a few of the bigger parcels along Cass.  Of course they need help with it with subsidies.   

I don't know that it's a bad thing to have a bunch of parking lots behind the main corridor on Woodward. 

They got hundreds-of-millions in subsidies and tax abatments from one of the poorest cities in America and built less than a quarter of what they promised initially with the District Detroit. It's an arena and then a bunch of parking lots. Next to none of the other retail, commercial, or office space development has even broken ground. They took the subsidies to build the arena and ran away laughing to the bank. Now according to the Detroit News they are coming back asking for another $616 MILLION in Brownfield Redevelopment subsidies for the District Detroit development from one of the poorest cities in America. Fuck them and their parking lots!!!

Edited February 15, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Great renderings of new developments or renovations that never deliver on the final concept are also uniquely Detroit and uniquely Ilitch. 

 

[oblong]

18 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

They got hundreds-of-millions in subsidies and tax abatments from one of the poorest cities in America and built less than a quarter of what they promised initially with the District Detroit. It's an arena and then a bunch of parking lots. Next to none of the other retail, commercial, or office space development has even broken ground. They took the subsidies to build the arena and ran away laughing to the bank. Now according to the Detroit News they are coming back asking for another $616 MILLION in Brownfield Redevelopment subsidies for the District Detroit development from one of the poorest cities in America. Fuck them and their parking lots!!!

I'm not a fan of them at all and I do follow that Terrible Ilitches facebook page.  They should be redeveloping existing structures rather than tearing down and building new.  That goes for anyone.  That's my point.  Leave the parking lots they have now as it is and fix what is above the ground sitting empty.  They have the beautiful old Moose Lodge building on Elizabeth that could solve their problems but I guess that's not sexy or financially attractive.

The new development we see in Detroit is ugly anyway.  

[Hongbit]

Commercial development is a tricky thing.  It’s a delicate balance of acquiring as much land as possible when it becomes available but you can’t develop all of it at the same time and risk overbuilding.   Supply and demand still rule in real estate.  If they build more they can fill, not only will the new buildings stay empty but rates on existing property rent will go down.   

Parking lots are a great way to buy time until it’s the right time to build.  They’re cheap and easy to construct, maintain, and destroy and they bring income to help offset any taxes.  
 

[oblong]

47 minutes ago, romad1 said:

I used to enjoy parking off the Silverdome and riding a bus into the place on a special route.  That made the experience a lot easier.   Gimme a metro station at the corner of 6 and middlebelt that could take me to a baseball game and back and i'll bet real estate prices at 6 and middlebelt would skyrocket. 

I despise shuttles.  Nothing worse than being on a bus full of a bunch of fat drunk old men pissed off about the Lions.

People in this region just will not do mass transit to the degree to make it financially stable.  it's not in our culture.  The Q Line is nothing but a subsidized tourist attraction.  It serves no practical function for anyone that needs to get to work on time.  I like being in control.  I don't want to wait in line to get on something to take me somewhere else that I then have to drive home.  I can leave my house today and be in my seat in 27 minutes.  If I knew a train would be there every 7 minutes to drop me off a 1/2 mile from my house, yes I would use that.  But that won't exist and I'm not moving for that reason.

[romad1]

6 minutes ago, oblong said:

I despise shuttles.  Nothing worse than being on a bus full of a bunch of fat drunk old men pissed off about the Lions.

People in this region just will not do mass transit to the degree to make it financially stable.  it's not in our culture.  The Q Line is nothing but a subsidized tourist attraction.  It serves no practical function for anyone that needs to get to work on time.  I like being in control.  I don't want to wait in line to get on something to take me somewhere else that I then have to drive home.  I can leave my house today and be in my seat in 27 minutes.  If I knew a train would be there every 7 minutes to drop me off a 1/2 mile from my house, yes I would use that.  But that won't exist and I'm not moving for that reason.

the WMATA has a definite development supercharging effect here in NOVA:  houses replaced by highrises and corner stores replaced by Google and Rolls Royce regional HQs.   I realize Michigan folk are anathema to the idea of mass transit.   I don't think that changes anytime soon.   I have that same attitude when i ride the metro here.  Its basically impossible to move at speed through the system.   

[Mr.TaterSalad]

18 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Commercial development is a tricky thing.  It’s a delicate balance of acquiring as much land as possible when it becomes available but you can’t develop all of it at the same time and risk overbuilding.   Supply and demand still rule in real estate.  If they build more they can fill, not only will the new buildings stay empty but rates on existing property rent will go down.   

Parking lots are a great way to buy time until it’s the right time to build.  They’re cheap and easy to construct, maintain, and destroy and they bring income to help offset any taxes.  
 

The Ilitches have rehabbed one historic building in 30 years and still brag about the work they did over 35 years ago on The Fox Theater. They promised an entire arena district complete with bars, restaurants, unique shops, lofts/apartments, office space, and more. They have built none of that, sans the arena, in the District Detroit area. They have torn down and raised dozens of buildings to put up surface lots and charge $40+ a day to park there. All the while they got hundreds-of-millions in subsidies from one of the poorest cities in America. That's tricky alright, a tricky way for them to reap the rewards without having to put in any of the promised work from their business proposals and renderings.

They are running a scam operation. Parking lots make you a lot of money and it is clear they won't develop anything without the taxpayers either footing the bill or taking care of a large portion of it. That's why they are now going back, hat in hand, asking for an additional $616 million in Brownfield money to start construction on the rest of the neglected District Detroit.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[CMRivdogs]

44 minutes ago, romad1 said:

the WMATA has a definite development supercharging effect here in NOVA:  houses replaced by highrises and corner stores replaced by Google and Rolls Royce regional HQs.   I realize Michigan folk are anathema to the idea of mass transit.   I don't think that changes anytime soon.   I have that same attitude when i ride the metro here.  Its basically impossible to move at speed through the system.   

I think those of us who have spent some time outside the region kind of understand that. In my 20 some years living in the Detroit region the biggest complaint has come from tourists, students and business people about the difficulty and expense of traveling from DTW.

DTW is probably one of the better "major" hubs to fly thru. However try to get from the airport to your destination. Cab fare is $50 to downtown, $35+ to Dearborn, $70+ to Novi, about $60 to Ann Arbor. There are a couple shuttles but unless you're lucky enough to time your flight right expect at least an hour hanging out in a baggage area that might or might not have access to coffee.

I haven't tried Amtrak to DC yet, I hate driving 95 anywhere from Fredericksburg north.  

edit, 

BTW the Q Line is a joke. The idea of putting the "rails" on the side of the road and "allowing" parking to screw everything up defeats the entire purpose. They really should have done what they did in Cleveland. A dedicated bus line down the middle of road with barriers to keep other vehicles out.

Edited February 15, 2023 by CMRivdogs

[Motor City Sonics]

I think a lot of us knew the Illitches were lying to get their stadium paid for.  

 

Because they lied there is a curse on Detroit sports teams. 

[Motor City Sonics]

2 hours ago, ewsieg said:

One of the additional perks of coming down to see the grandparents when I was growing up was it meant a trip to Buscemi's on our way back home.  

Funny story.    Even though I lived on the West side, my cousin is a dentist on the east side.   After getting some work done once I stopped by the Buscemi's on the way back to Ann Arbor for the radio gig.   I bought a slice,  It was delicious, but it was really, really chewy..........because in my numbed condition I was chewing my bottom lip.    When I walked into the radio station an hour later my boss was walking by the front door, he took one look at me and said "What the hell did they do to you?" and just burst out laughing.     Painful, but funny. 

[romad1]

18 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

I think those of us who have spent some time outside the region kind of understand that. In my 20 some years living in the Detroit region the biggest complaint has come from tourists, students and business people about the difficulty and expense of traveling from DTW.

DTW is probably one of the better "major" hubs to fly thru. However try to get from the airport to your destination. Cab fare is $50 to downtown, $35+ to Dearborn, $70+ to Novi, about $60 to Ann Arbor. There are a couple shuttles but unless you're lucky enough to time your flight right expect at least an hour hanging out in a baggage area that might or might not have access to coffee.

I haven't tried Amtrak to DC yet, I hate driving 95 anywhere from Fredericksburg north.  

edit, 

BTW the Q Line is a joke. The idea of putting the "rails" on the side of the road and "allowing" parking to screw everything up defeats the entire purpose. They really should have done what they did in Cleveland. A dedicated bus line down the middle of road with barriers to keep other vehicles out.

Amtrak south of DC was slow.  DC to NY was absolutely fine.  I'm told absolutely fine all the way to Boston.    I would love a rail connection from DC to Detroit but expect to share that rail with freight. 

[CMRivdogs]

1 minute ago, romad1 said:

Amtrak south of DC was slow.  DC to NY was absolutely fine.  I'm told absolutely fine all the way to Boston.    I would love a rail connection from DC to Detroit but expect to share that rail with freight. 

That's the problem, not to mention the only Amtrak lines east seem to run out of Toledo. About 25 years ago my son and I tried Amtrak from Chicago to Roanoke, Va to visit family. It was an overnight run at about 13 hours. I hated it, not to mention the train didn't go into Roanoke, but about 40 miles north to Clifton Forge.

I'm looking at about 2 hours from Richmond to DC by train. From Williamsburg its probably equal to driving. 

[romad1]

12 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

That's the problem, not to mention the only Amtrak lines east seem to run out of Toledo. About 25 years ago my son and I tried Amtrak from Chicago to Roanoke, Va to visit family. It was an overnight run at about 13 hours. I hated it, not to mention the train didn't go into Roanoke, but about 40 miles north to Clifton Forge.

I'm looking at about 2 hours from Richmond to DC by train. From Williamsburg its probably equal to driving. 

I had super slow trip to North Carolina from DC by rail that took an extra 8 hours because the ground under the tracks were wet.   That's not acceptable.   But, because Amtrak is a toy and not meant to be reliable human transportation its allowed.  The NE corridor is reliable.  I'm told its reliable in some other places as well.  

[Hongbit]

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

The Ilitches have rehabbed one historic building in 30 years and still brag about the work they did over 35 years ago on The Fox Theater. They promised an entire arena district complete with bars, restaurants, unique shops, lofts/apartments, office space, and more. They have built none of that, sans the arena, in the District Detroit area. They have torn down and raised dozens of buildings to put up surface lots and charge $40+ a day to park there. All the while they got hundreds-of-millions in subsidies from one of the poorest cities in America. That's tricky alright, a tricky way for them to reap the rewards without having to put in any of the promised work from their business proposals and renderings.

They are running a scam operation. Parking lots make you a lot of money and it is clear they won't develop anything without the taxpayers either footing the bill or taking care of a large portion of it. That's why they are now going back, hat in hand, asking for an additional $616 million in Brownfield money to start construction on the rest of the neglected District Detroit.

It’s not true the Ilitch’s only rehabbed one building.    They redid that nice building right across from Comerica.  You know, the one with the pizza shaped windows that houses Little Caeser’s world headquarters.  Lol

No doubt there’s some shady stuff with them especially with the amount of free money and tax concessions they are taking.  I was just trying to point out why a normal area may see so many parking lots instead of actual development.   

Edited February 15, 2023 by Hongbit

[Mr.TaterSalad]

37 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I think a lot of us knew the Illitches were lying to get their stadium paid for.  

 

Because they lied there is a curse on Detroit sports teams. 

Detroit News: District Detroit: Inside the Ilitches' land of unfulfilled promises

This is what they do. The Ilitches and Ilitch Family Holdings have made a career and lots of money out of operating this way. When they built Comerica Park they promised a Foxtown development, complete with a rendering, just like they did the District Detroit. Guess what happened to that promised Foxtown development, it never came to fruition.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

10 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

It’s not true the Ilitch’s only rehabbed one building.    They redid that nice building right across from Comerica.  You know, the one with the pizza shaped windows that houses Little Caeser’s world headquarters.  Lol

No doubt there’s some shady stuff with them especially with the amount of free money and tax concessions they are taking.  I was just trying to point out why a normal area may see so many parking lots instead of actual development.   

LOL! And they were behind schedule on even getting the glass pizza building done.

[Motor City Sonics]

56 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Detroit News: District Detroit: Inside the Ilitches' land of unfulfilled promises

This is what they do. The Ilitches and Ilitch Family Holdings have made a career and lots of money out of operating this way. When they built Comerica Park they promised a Foxtown development, complete with a rendering, just like they did the District Detroit. Guess what happened to that promised Foxtown development, it never came to fruition.

Yeah, but its only been 24 years...........you gotta give it time, man. 

[lordstanley]

 

 

[lordstanley]

Channel 62.

 

[lordstanley]

 

[lordstanley]

 

[chasfh]

On 2/15/2023 at 7:27 AM, Hongbit said:

Is that the one in the liquor store In Plymouth?  If so, that pizza is great.

Buscemi’s has (had?) a party store situation at their location at Martin and Hoover in Warren.

[chasfh]

22 hours ago, romad1 said:

if they are a crime family, they are an exceptionally boring crime family.    Not that i want eccentric crime families running my sports teams 

Boring is the most effective kind of crime family. Drama’s bad for business.

Edited February 16, 2023 by chasfh