It's a DETROIT thing.

[chasfh]

 

[gehringer_2]

The parking lots are just the reflection of commercial sq footage demand. We rag on the Ilitches but if parking lots are more profitable than what they can build on them that's because of the broader economic conditions in that area of the city. This is one situation where the market really will solve the problem for you. When the property becomes valuable enough to be demanded for some other use, the parking lots will disappear. The city is still having trouble filling the commercial spaces South of Grand Circus Park. Until there is higher occupancy pressure there, commercial development going North is going to continue to be slow. If/when the work at home shift from the pandemic ebbs, that will help. If it becomes more permanent, it won't.

Edited February 16, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Mr.TaterSalad]

19 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

The parking lots are just the reflection of commercial sq footage demand. We rag on the Ilitches but if parking lots are more profitable than what they can build on them that's because of the broader economic conditions in that area of the city. This is one situation where the market really will solve the problem for you. When the property becomes valuable enough to be demanded for some other use, the parking lots will disappear. The city is still having trouble filling the commercial spaces South of Grand Circus Park. Until there is higher occupancy pressure there, commercial development going North is going to continue to be slow. If/when the work at home shift from the pandemic ebbs, that will help. If it becomes more permanent, it won't.

The Ilitches were doing the parking lot game long before the pandemic. They have been demolishing historic buildings to put up parking lots for decades. They have also been allowing their commercial and/or historic properties to sit vacant for decades and rot away.

Compare the Ilitches and Ilitch Family Holdings to Dan Gilbert and Rock. Look at what Dan Gilbert and Rock did with the Campus Martius area and what they are now doing on the Hudson site project. The Ilitches would never turn their properties over that quickly and redevelop them. They certainly wouldn't do it without a huge tax abatement from the state or city.

Back in 1994-1995 when the Comerica Park project was first bandied about Mike Ilitch proposed the Foxtown Development. What was Foxtown supposed to be? It was supposed to be an area around the Fox Theater and Comerica Park with apartments/condos/lofts, shopping and dining, office space, museums, and more. And what became of Foxtown? Nothing! Just like the District Detroit today, it was all a scam for the Ilitches to buy land on the cheap, get subsidies to demolish historic buildings, get a stadium built with taxpayer money, and build out none of the rest of the promised development. All the while, taking your taxpayer subsidies to the bank, in one of the poorest cities in America, laughing all the way while you count how much scratch you just made off the suckers.

Sound familiar . . . 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[gehringer_2]

26 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Dan Gilbert and Rock

and how much have even they slowed down. The Hudson's bldg has been on a slow walk and the Book bullding also took years longer than planned. And there is also a big difference in that Gilbert was rehabbing landmark structures - the parking lots around the ball parks were not filled with structures that had class A potential. I'm not trying to give the Ilitch group a pass on having oversold their plans, but almost every developer does that - its part of the poltical dance to get the funding to do the job you actually want to do - which in this case was build the two sports venues. The truth is that if they had promised nothing other than the arenas in the 1st place we still should have been glad of the effort but it more likely would have been shot down. I will definitely knock them for the block north of LCA though - the city needed to push them way harder on that. The parking lots I can live with until the market decides they are uneconomic.

Edited February 16, 2023 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

and just to finish on the topic.

In a city with literally thousands of acres of total wasteland abadoned property, the existence of clean parking lots that generate revenue (and mostly suburban dollars at that) on a regular basis is not the biggest land use worry.

Edited February 16, 2023 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

46 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

The Ilitches were doing the parking lot game long before the pandemic. They have been demolishing historic buildings to put up parking lots for decades. They have also been allowing their commercial and/or historic properties to sit vacant for decades and rot away.

Compare the Ilitches and Ilitch Family Holdings to Dan Gilbert and Rock. Look at what Dan Gilbert and Rock did with the Campus Martius area and what they are now doing on the Hudson site project. The Ilitches would never turn their properties over that quickly and redevelop them. They certainly wouldn't do it without a huge tax abatement from the state or city.

Back in 1994-1995 when the Comerica Park project was first bandied about Mike Ilitch proposed the Foxtown Development. What was Foxtown supposed to be? It was supposed to be an area around the Fox Theater and Comerica Park with apartments/condos/lofts, shopping and dining, office space, museums, and more. And what became of Foxtown? Nothing! Just like the District Detroit today, it was all a scam for the Ilitches to buy land on the cheap, get subsidies to demolish historic buildings, get a stadium built with taxpayer money, and build out none of the rest of the promised development. All the while, taking your taxpayer subsidies to the bank, in one of the poorest cities in America, laughing all the way while you count how much scratch you just made off the suckers.

I don't think anybody here disagrees with you.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

I don't think anybody here disagrees with you.

also notice whose vision all that was. A dead guy's. How obligated is Chris Ilitch and the ongoing corporate entity to be bound by his father's ambitions? Corporations are never particularly reliable partners. How many venues have signed big endorsement deals with companies that went belly up and they get squat? Show me who is knocking at the door to do the devlopment that Ilitch isn't? 

Again, I'm not trying to defend Ilitch, just trying to inject a more realisitic take that expecting a bunch of pie in the sky ambitions to all come up roses - especially after the singular personality driving them leaves the scene,  is, well, pie in the sky.

Edited February 16, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Mr.TaterSalad]

10 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

also notice whose vision all that was. A dead guy's. How obligated is Chris Ilitch and the ongoing corporate entity to be bound by his father's ambitions? Corporations are never particularly reliable partners. How many venues have signed big endorsement deals with companies that went belly up and they get squat? Show me who is knocking at the door to do the devlopment that Ilitch isn't? 

Again, I'm not trying to defend Ilitch, just trying to inject a more realisitic take that expecting a bunch of pie in the sky ambitions to all come up roses - especially after the singular personality driving them leaves the scene,  is, well, pie in the sky.

First off, I know you aren't defending Chris Ilitch or the Ilitch family business practices. 🙂 

I understand the District Detroit was not Chris' idea, but daddy's boy will gladly take all the corporate welfare through subsidies and tax abatement he can get. He will also not give back or refund to the taxpayers, in one of the poorest cities in America, those subsidies and abatements Ilitch Family Holdings has already received. He'll also come hat in hand asking for another $616 million in a brownfield redevelopment subsidy to finish the project. 

I think the city should explore using eminent domain to forcibly take away Ilitch-owned properties.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[oblong]

Isn't Eminent Domain predicated on there being no other reasonable options for a development that serves a general public good, at least on paper?  It has to be tied to a specific proposal, not just because something is not being done somewhere.  Like building a factory but one guy with a shed won't sell for less than $8 million so he holds it up?

 

 

[Motor City Sonics]

20 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

First off, I know you aren't defending Chris Ilitch or the Ilitch family business practices. 🙂 

I understand the District Detroit was not Chris' idea, but daddy's boy will gladly take all the corporate welfare through subsidies and tax abatement he can get. He will also not give back or refund to the taxpayers, in one of the poorest cities in America, those subsidies and abatements Ilitch Family Holdings has already received. He'll also come hat in hand asking for another $616 million in a brownfield redevelopment subsidy to finish the project. 

I think the city should explore using eminent domain to forcibly take away Ilitch-owned properties.

Comerica Park is about to turn 25 years old.    The way baseball burns through stadiums now, I wouldn't be shocked if in the next 5 years they start floating the idea of a new ballpark behind LCA.     There is nothing wrong with Comerica Park (well, a south-facing homeplate was not the best idea), but look at the Palace and how quickly they demolished that place.  It was still in great shape.    I know they're going to try to do that before 2030.     I just wish he'd sell the team.  He doesn't want it.  He doesn't care. 

[oblong]

I think the Palace was a different situation altogether.  They didn't move to LCA because of the Palace facility itself.  Tom Gores saw an opportunity at LCA with it being downtown.  It was about branding. They merged their entertainment companies into one business unit.  He was able to sell/develop the valuable property in Auburn Hills.

I think I've been to more Piston games at LCA than games at the Palace (After 1994)  to be honest.  Hated that place.  Hated the drive.  Hated the wait to get out of the parking lot. 

My son and his friends go to Piston games all the time.  At the palace it never would have happened.  They go to games and do other stuff while in Detroit.  What's their to do in Auburn Hills but get lost in a corn field?

[Hongbit]

3 hours ago, oblong said:

I think the Palace was a different situation altogether.  They didn't move to LCA because of the Palace facility itself.  Tom Gores saw an opportunity at LCA with it being downtown.  It was about branding. They merged their entertainment companies into one business unit.  He was able to sell/develop the valuable property in Auburn Hills.

I think I've been to more Piston games at LCA than games at the Palace (After 1994)  to be honest.  Hated that place.  Hated the drive.  Hated the wait to get out of the parking lot. 

My son and his friends go to Piston games all the time.  At the palace it never would have happened.  They go to games and do other stuff while in Detroit.  What's their to do in Auburn Hills but get lost in a corn field?

Agree.  LCA is much much better in every facet.  The only issue is the ridiculous price of everything but that’s out society these days and just an LCA thing.  

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Even with Comerica Park the Ilitches could have opted to renovate Tiger Stadium instead and kept it going similar to the Red Sox with Fenway or Cubs with Wrigley.

[romad1]

They could rebuild a version of Tiger Stadium and I'd be happy.   

[chasfh]

On 2/17/2023 at 12:00 PM, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Even with Comerica Park the Ilitches could have opted to renovate Tiger Stadium instead and kept it going similar to the Red Sox with Fenway or Cubs with Wrigley.

Nah, it was time to retire Tiger Stadium. It was pretty dingy and cramped, and a lot of seats were blocked by posts.

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

a lot of seats were blocked by posts.

This. I know they still get away selling obstructed view seats at Fenway, but at this point that is a weird exception to a general rule that people are not going to pay good money to still behind poles and close to half the seats at TS were behind the poles. The good seats at TS were the best anywhere, but there weren't enough of them.

[oblong]

39 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

This. I know they still get away selling obstructed view seats at Fenway, but at this point that is a weird exception to a general rule that people are not going to pay good money to still behind poles and close to half the seats at TS were behind the poles. The good seats at TS were the best anywhere, but there weren't enough of them.

I used to fret that too many people would be at the game when I would walk up for tickets becaise you get above 18K “real” attendance then you stood chance of obstruction. And it wasn’t just the seats directly behind them that were an issue you could be rows behind and have them in front of players and action.  Plus the overhang of the upper deck meant you couldn’t see fly balls. 

[Screwball]

Some of my best lifelong memories were from Tiger Stadium. I was in right field behind a post but captured a Steve Kemp home run ball. Dove over 3 rows to get it - I was young. Then my kids years later ran out of baseballs and that one somehow went missing from my trophy case. Kids...

Was there for the Bird when he made his comeback. Behind another pole. Talked to an usher and he moved us. Good seats - thanks.

Saw Micky and McClain in 68, Nolan Ryan at another game after we got the ushers to give us better seats sometime in the 80s I think it was, (more pole problems). We used to drive a couple hours to get there around the time the sun came to stand in line to get tickets. Standing in line was easy when you are young.

I have a wide screen picture of the last pitch in Tiger Stadium on my living room wall as we speak.

[romad1]

NOTHING on packzi day?   This was an annual phone call from my sister in law to exclaim loudly that it was indeed "PUNCHKI DAY!"

[oblong]

Having a polish mother in law and a son with a girlfriend who's whole family was born in Poland means I'm getting the good stuff...

 

[romad1]

1 minute ago, oblong said:

Having a polish mother in law and a son with a girlfriend who's whole family was born in Poland means I'm getting the good stuff...

 

Can only imagine the tracer-inducing diabetic shock that might cause.  :--)

[oblong]

26 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Can only imagine the tracer-inducing diabetic shock that might cause.  :--)

Except she always has some prune ones in there.  I just don't get it.  Nobody eats prunes because they want to.  "But that's what we had when I was a little girl and I was raised by parents and aunts/uncles who grew up in the depression"

 

[romad1]

4 minutes ago, oblong said:

Except she always has some prune ones in there.  I just don't get it.  Nobody eats prunes because they want to.  "But that's what we had when I was a little girl and I was raised by parents and aunts/uncles who grew up in the depression"

 

The Polish version of the depression was the Holocaust and the Warsaw Uprising. 

[casimir]

7 minutes ago, oblong said:

Except she always has some prune ones in there.  I just don't get it.  Nobody eats prunes because they want to.  "But that's what we had when I was a little girl and I was raised by parents and aunts/uncles who grew up in the depression"

 

I grew up a Polish speaking neighborhood.  Went to Catholic school in the polish speaking neighborhood which was run by the church that had a Polish speaking mass every Sunday morning.  We would have Pazcki Day at school.  $0.50 per pazcki, pre-order so the bakery (run by Polish folks) had adequate time to bake and transport the right amount to school.  We could choose from plain, raspberry, and prune.  Ah, them was the days....

But all these gall darn newfangled pazcki nowadays.... Lemon?  Nobody in Poland ever went out to the lemon tree and harvested lemons for pazcki.  Get out of here with that nonsense.

[romad1]

10 minutes ago, casimir said:

I grew up a Polish speaking neighborhood.  Went to Catholic school in the polish speaking neighborhood which was run by the church that had a Polish speaking mass every Sunday morning.  We would have Pazcki Day at school.  $0.50 per pazcki, pre-order so the bakery (run by Polish folks) had adequate time to bake and transport the right amount to school.  We could choose from plain, raspberry, and prune.  Ah, them was the days....

But all these gall darn newfangled pazcki nowadays.... Lemon?  Nobody in Poland ever went out to the lemon tree and harvested lemons for pazcki.  Get out of here with that nonsense.

So, your saying a guy named Casimir has some connection to Polish culture?  Get out!  :--)