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February Game Threads


lordstanley

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2 hours ago, buddha said:

i dont see it.

i'd rather get something for bert.

They are in a tough spot. They already have lots of middling guys - what they need -as I think you noted - are a few more top end guys and usually you get those from high picks or big FA signings. Unless you send out Larkin or Seider, which gets you nowhere they are the only upper echelon talents you have, I don't see any one on this roster bringing back enough to get the Wings what they need.

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42 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

They are in a tough spot. They already have lots of middling guys - what they need -as I think you noted - are a few more top end guys and usually you get those from high picks or big FA signings. Unless you send out Larkin or Seider, which gets you nowhere they are the only upper echelon talents you have, I don't see any one on this roster bringing back enough to get the Wings what they need.

seider has returned to being near elite, imo.  he's playing much better now that he's not with chairot anymore.

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1 hour ago, lordstanley said:

I’d like the Wings to reach 90 points. That won’t be the playoffs, but would be meaningful improvement and put them within striking distance for next year. They’re on pace for 87 points now. agree that trade deadline moves and player call-ups should be done without considering playoff chances.  

That's my main point.

To build this team for future pennant races.

But that doesn't mean a straight sell-off either. SY could both sell AND BUY, given the right opportunity. That was my other point. He is going to start to have to make decisions on how to build this team going forward... meaning, who sticks, and who should be moved out. 

I know I have proposed some crazy trades with middling or secondary prospects (not top prospects) for other players... But both guys on the Red Wings who are not necessary or extraneous for future playoff teams, as well as secondary prospects... should be eligible for trading off fort any upgrade SY can squeeze. He could look like he is buying for the playoffs at the deadline, even as he trades off Bertuzzi or other guys that may not be long for this team. Even if he trades off someone like Maatta, whom I would rather NOT be traded off...

I guess the short story is...: Could be a funky looking trade deadline for the Wings...

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57 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

They are in a tough spot. They already have lots of middling guys - what they need -as I think you noted - are a few more top end guys and usually you get those from high picks or big FA signings. Unless you send out Larkin or Seider, which gets you nowhere they are the only upper echelon talents you have, I don't see any one on this roster bringing back enough to get the Wings what they need.

Go back and take a look at that Horvat trade and tell me the Wings couldn't have beaten what was traded.

There are obviously lots of other considerations... I just take exception to your statement on us having no one to get what the Wings need. We have prospects, draft picks, etc...

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17 minutes ago, buddha said:

maybe.  i would do that unless i can get a first for him (which i think they might be able to get).

I also would prioritize it like that...

A 1st? Trade him.

Later than that... or a 1-year contract instead... sure, I could do that...

Edited by 1984Echoes
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14 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Go back and take a look at that Horvat trade and tell me the Wings couldn't have beaten what was traded.

There are obviously lots of other considerations... I just take exception to your statement on us having no one to get what the Wings need. We have prospects, draft picks, etc...

Sure, but but keep in mind all NY got was a rental and the chance to negotiate from less distance with a free agent. They didn't give up that much but they didn't yet land anything like a long term piece of their future either (which is what the Wings are still looking for)

Edited by gehringer_2
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35 minutes ago, buddha said:

maybe.  i would do that unless i can get a first for him (which i think they might be able to get).

We have to hope the consensus scouting report on Bertuzzi doesn't converge to:  "good player on a bad team, but maybe not good enough player to be good on a better team."

Edited by gehringer_2
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3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Sure, but but keep in mind all NY got was a rental and the chance to negotiate from less distance with a free agent. They didn't give up that much but they didn't yet land anything like a long term piece of their future either (which is what the Wings are still looking for)

Well those are money decisions.

Something that is in Stevie Y's sights as he sets to build the team... keeping an eye on the cap as well as the talent/ incoming talent...

He could have easily traded for Horvat, signed him for $8.5 mill AAV, and said to Larkin "Here's the $9 mill AAV that you wanted immediately after.

But those are other considerations as I've noted above, and SY's purview... which does NOT negate the potential that we could still make a similar trade as we do have enough ammo.

I think buddha alluded to the fact that NY would not have made that trade without some idea that they'd be able to sign him long-term shortly thereafter. SY certainly could have decided to go that route if he wanted to... both with trading prospects/ draft picks for Horvat and his contract/ signing risk... he is just choosing a different route.

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41 minutes ago, buddha said:

seider has returned to being near elite, imo.  he's playing much better now that he's not with chairot anymore.

Seider's fine. They just need to get to where he isn't trying to do the work or 2 or 3 players by himself. 

That's one place the Wings at least have some leadership - their two best players - Larkin and Seider, are strong team guys. You couldn't blame either one for playing a more selfish game, but neither does.

Edited by gehringer_2
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20 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Sure, but but keep in mind all NY got was a rental and the chance to negotiate from less distance with a free agent. They didn't give up that much but they didn't yet land anything like a long term piece of their future either (which is what the Wings are still looking for)

But NY extended him.

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7 minutes ago, sagnam said:

But NY extended him.

right, but they didn't 'get' him for the trade pieces, they 'got' him for the $dollars spent. The question was what kinds of   players the Wings could expect to draw with their trade pieces, which is a bit different question from how much the Wings are willing to pay for a FA - which is the bigger part of what NY did (i.e. pay as opposed to trade) to nail down Horvat as more than a rental.

Edited by gehringer_2
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PS: I took a look at Arizona's roster and they are so bereft of talent, especially young talent...

Which doesn't mean absolute zero... just a serious deficiency...

So yes, I would trade Chychrun for a stash of future assets if I could get enough players/ prospects/ draft picks that I believed in, that could play in the NHL in the near future or would be drafted by my team... IE: I would be OK with a non-playoff-protected 2023 1st rounder that turns into a 2024 2nd and 2025 3rd as long as I also got a 2024 unprotected 1st and a 2023 2nd. Do I get to choose Carter Mazur over Cross Hanas as 1 of my prospects? I choose Mazur. And my choice of Wallinder/ Buium/ Johansson? Do I get a choice of 1 of Veleno/ Zadina/ Maatta/ Walman (I choose Zadina... I think)? Will you throw in Vrana since you want him gone anyways?

I'm not in complete Dombrowski mode... But if I can trade the right guy for multiple future assets in order to increase the overall talent level of the Org then yes (If I were Zona and looking to improve the team...).

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8 hours ago, buddha said:

of course.  

arizona would not.  

come on 84, be realistic.

That's the exact same comment you made on my Horvat trade proposal. Which turned out to be not unrealistic at all.

So let me rephrase that: Is my proposal unrealistic? No, it's not.

Is it unlikely? Yeah, probably.

But I was just using it as an example that Stevie should be looking to buy, as well as sell; not just one thing. It wasn't actually meant as "what is a realistic trade proposal for Chychrun."

Also (another "but"): It really depends on circumstances. Arizona I believe has been asking all along for 2 highly regarded prospects and two 1sts for Chychrun. But receiving no qualifying offers says (A) No one was willing to meet that price, and (B) Zona therefore signed him to an extension till 2025 I believe.

But again, circumstances change. And I have no idea what their FO is thinking... but they've tried to move him before... and if they do so again, but under the circumstances that they "must" move him for the best package they can get... My package may very well win the day.

Is it an unrealistic proposal? No, it is not. But it depends on circumstances.

Is it unlikely? Probably... because it depends on circumstances...

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2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

That's the exact same comment you made on my Horvat trade proposal. Which turned out to be not unrealistic at all.

So let me rephrase that: Is my proposal unrealistic? No, it's not.

Is it unlikely? Yeah, probably.

But I was just using it as an example that Stevie should be looking to buy, as well as sell; not just one thing. It wasn't actually meant as "what is a realistic trade proposal for Chychrun."

Also (another "but"): It really depends on circumstances. Arizona I believe has been asking all along for 2 highly regarded prospects and two 1sts for Chychrun. But receiving no qualifying offers says (A) No one was willing to meet that price, and (B) Zona therefore signed him to an extension till 2025 I believe.

But again, circumstances change. And I have no idea what their FO is thinking... but they've tried to move him before... and if they do so again, but under the circumstances that they "must" move him for the best package they can get... My package may very well win the day.

Is it an unrealistic proposal? No, it is not. But it depends on circumstances.

Is it unlikely? Probably... because it depends on circumstances...

would you accept an old stay at home defenseman, plus secondary prospects, plus draft picks for dylan larkin?

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Dylan Larkin is a better player than Chychrun.

And you're ignoring my other post that opened up more options then just "an old stay at home defenseman".

You seem to be getting stuck on that.

One last comment: It depends on circumstances. Let me turn that around on you: SY discovers that Larkin has had it with negotiations and is refusing any further talks. He is going to become unrestricted and can't be talked out of it. The Red Wings are going to lose him for nothing. OR... what package would YOU accept for Larkin, who is adamant on leaving the Red Wings with nothing?

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