06/26/2023 8:10pm EDT Detroit Tigers vs Texas Rangers

[gehringer_2]

Stavenhagen tweeted that Hinch said no updates/decisions tonight.

[RandyMarsh]

All things considered that may be the most impressive win of season. 

[chasfh]

8 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

I didn't think there was even a chance to win this game as Boyd left the mound, injured. But....baseball.

You misspelled “Vest”.

[Motor City Sonics]

So,  Boyd's last pitch as a Tiger?    Last pitch in the Majors?       Seems like he blew his elbow out.      I have this feeling Vest tore an ACL or Meniscus - because the Tigers are cursed.  

[1984Echoes]

9 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Didn't somebody release him when they signed Chafin? Arizona?

9 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Chafin is on the way to having a terrific year, his best, but he's 33.  Getting Holton, sort of in exchange in a weird sort of way, was an outcome that takes away a lot of the disappointment about not getting Chafin back.

 

I guess I'll take that trade: Chafin for Holton. Works for me.

[alex]

11 hours ago, Tigermojo said:

Lot of fluke stuff this year. Neck, fingers, toe...

There is a lot to this with regards to the amount of injuries to Ps. It may be more than just baseball, but the movement and physical stress may really help exploit a possible underlying scenario that is complex (IMHO)...

I have posted it several times now:

The days of 3 SP on a team throwing 200+ innings are loooong gone! (note: perhaps an outlier staff or two may occur.) Crazy, we used to think in the 90's to early 2000s how could any of those previous decade SPs toss 250-300 innings a year...

Each organization needs 10 SPs ready to put up innings for the MLB team. You start a season with 5 SPs in rotation (not counting IL out of the gate), have 2-3 ready at AAA and maybe 1-2 from AA. Yet, if not there to begin with maybe the waiver wire and/or trades.  At any time 1/3 are on the IL (again an outlier here and there). Most all teams now know this and it has been repeatedly mentioned on various MLB broadcasts.

SI, by Tom Verducci, had an interesting article just recently about the scenario of current MLB SP :

https://www.si.com/mlb/2023/05/22/starting-pitching-decline-pitch-count-timer-injuries

 

[casimir]

So, let me see if I get this straight.  The Tigers can actually win a game in which Rogers hits a HR.  But two pitchers need to be sacrificed in the process?  I don't know if that's a worthwhile long term strategy.

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, casimir said:

So, let me see if I get this straight.  The Tigers can actually win a game in which Rogers hits a HR.  But two pitchers need to be sacrificed in the process?  I don't know if that's a worthwhile long term strategy.

Yeah - but you have to consider that one was Boyd, so....

[Sports_Freak]

25 minutes ago, alex said:

There is a lot to this with regards to the amount of injuries to Ps. It may be more than just baseball, but the movement and physical stress may really help exploit a possible underlying scenario that is complex (IMHO)...

I have posted it several times now:

The days of 3 SP on a team throwing 200+ innings are loooong gone! (note: perhaps an outlier staff or two may occur.) Crazy, we used to think in the 90's to early 2000s how could any of those previous decade SPs toss 250-300 innings a year...

Each organization needs 10 SPs ready to put up innings for the MLB team. You start a season with 5 SPs in rotation (not counting IL out of the gate), have 2-3 ready at AAA and maybe 1-2 from AA. Yet, if not there to begin with maybe the waiver wire and/or trades.  At any time 1/3 are on the IL (again an outlier here and there). Most all teams now know this and it has been repeatedly mentioned on various MLB broadcasts.

SI, by Tom Verducci, had an interesting article just recently about the scenario of current MLB SP :

https://www.si.com/mlb/2023/05/22/starting-pitching-decline-pitch-count-timer-injuries

 

Good article. I have been saying for a while that pitchers are (were) only conditioned to throw 100 pitches per start. Over that and it really strained their bodies. I was wrong, it's the intensity they throw with. Every pitch has to be max effort now.

[gehringer_2]

40 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Good article. I have been saying for a while that pitchers are (were) only conditioned to throw 100 pitches per start. Over that and it really strained their bodies. I was wrong, it's the intensity they throw with. Every pitch has to be max effort now.

I think one possible thing is that few guys come up knowing how to add and subtract from their fastball anymore. If we take Verlander as being as close to an old school pitcher as we have as a recent  example, when he came up he could throw 100 -  but while he could, he kept it in his back pocket most of the time and his fastball might vary from 90 to 96 through most of the game. He only had to show a guy high velo to keep him keyed to it. Today, most 95+ guys either aren't going to try to or are not able to spot a FB at 3/4 effort, so they are going to throw a change or hard slider with full arm velo to get the same delta velo effect. You can keep a hitter off guard with either break or speed change. Break is more dramatic, but it comes with more cost to the pitcher.

Edited June 27, 2023 by gehringer_2

[RandyMarsh]

The more high stress max effort pitches along with the increase reliance on spin rate and hard sliders is the biggest reason for the injuries. I don't think it's cause the players today are in worse shape than before or are too coddled, I think it's entirely those reasons.

If guys of the past threw every pitch with the effort and strain guys put on their arm like the guys today too they'd be getting injured too

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by RandyMarsh

[chasfh]

7 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Good article. I have been saying for a while that pitchers are (were) only conditioned to throw 100 pitches per start. Over that and it really strained their bodies. I was wrong, it's the intensity they throw with. Every pitch has to be max effort now.

Deaden the ball and it won't have to be like that anymore.

[gehringer_2]

7 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I don't think it's cause the players today are in worse shape than before or are too coddled,

yeah - orgs have tried working on this premise - Nolan Ryan when he was running Tx I remember in particular. Nothing they tried made any difference.

[alex]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Deaden the ball and it won't have to be like that anymore.

Interesting... does this refer to the ball being lighter per say?

[chasfh]

10 minutes ago, alex said:

Interesting... does this refer to the ball being lighter per say?

Probably not—the ball has not changed in size since 5-for-4-inch-140-pound pitchers were trodding the earth in the 1880s. They are all between five and 5-1/4 ounces.

Long story short: deadening the ball will reduce fear of the home run and allow pitchers to pitch to contact, letting their fielders get outs for them by throwing strikes to down-the-order-hitters to get more balls put the ball in play.

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

Deaden the ball and it won't have to be like that anymore.

They only use a deadened ball when the Tigers are hitting. 😄

[Tiger337]

8 hours ago, chasfh said:

Probably not—the ball has not changed in size since 5-for-4-inch-140-pound pitchers were trodding the earth in the 1880s. They are all between five and 5-1/4 ounces.

Long story short: deadening the ball will reduce fear of the home run and allow pitchers to pitch to contact, letting their fielders get outs for them by throwing strikes to down-the-order-hitters to get more balls put the ball in play.

Not that MLB would ever give up the long ball, but it might be too late anyway.  The pitchers know how to get strikeouts now and won't give that up easily even though is takes a toll on their arms.  I guess the next step would be to convince them that pitching to contact will extend their careers and earn them more money.  But we know MLB is not giving up the long ball anyway.  

[chasfh]

4 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Not that MLB would ever give up the long ball, but it might be too late anyway.  The pitchers know how to get strikeouts now and won't give that up easily even though is takes a toll on their arms.  I guess the next step would be to convince them that pitching to contact will extend their careers and earn them more money.  But we know MLB is not giving up the long ball anyway.  

I agree some won’t, but I think many will. It’s like anything else: not 100% of everybody reacts to sudden change the same way. We see that with the pitch timer right now.

I would imagine pitchers trying to make their mark, or trying to hang on to their 13th-pitcher jobs, would continue to try to throw it through the wall to impress management and increase their usage or stay on the team. Guys who are more secure, especially those with long-term contracts, would probably be more likely to figure out how to effectively ease up and save their arms for their future.