Evaluate Scott Harris' first year

[chasfh]

23 minutes ago, oblong said:

A 23 year old DH only needs to be an Ohtani type hitter.

Is Tork a long term answer at 1B?  Is Carptenter long for the OF?

 

On a team with designs on a pennant, no and no. On a team struggling to put a decent product on a field while they remake the organization from top to bottom, sure, why not.

I'll be fascinated to see where these guys fit into the plan for this team. The one thing Carpenter has going for him is a good arm for right field. Tork has a wet noodle for his arm which, although not as important for a first baseman, does not pair up well with his near-league-worst range. First base defense does not live on scoops alone.

[casimir]

35 minutes ago, oblong said:

A 23 year old DH only needs to be an Ohtani type hitter.

 

Hmmmm.... 

Hey Fetter, want an offseason project?

[casimir]

58 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think this is right. Malloy and Keith have serious defensive issues, and I’m pretty sure this FO is not going to punt on defense in order to get bats into the lineup. I think I remember someone suggesting we make Malloy basically a permanent DH. Setting aside the idea that having a permanent DH removes the flexibility of putting guys there who need a day off from the field but still need to keep their batting eye fresh—which was the problem with having Miggy on this team—I believe that if the 23-year-old hitting prospect you have is not able play any one position well enough at the big league level to put him there regularly, it’s time to figure out how to trade him to a team that actually doesn’t care about that, in exchange for someone more useful to you. Who knows, maybe that’s what the Braves were doing when they were willing to part with Malloy for Joe Jimenez.

Ideally Harris is able to eventually put together a team with 5 or 6 bona fide full time (offense & defense) position players and a solid catching combo.  That leaves the DH role for days off from the field as you've mentioned and a couple of defensive spots that can be mixed & matched.  If we can assume the bats in the upper minor mature, that's great, but it also fields a lot of questionable defense.  That balance might be enough to get into playoff contention, especially in a weak division, but I'm not sure its a really cohesive and balanced team. 

So, yeah, Atlanta is in the prime of going for a title right now.  That makes a prospect available for trade.  And then when the defensive reputation is as poor as his is, that makes the bat more available as well.  It explains why that OPS was available for one season of Jimenez.  Fortunately the OPS remains, but where does that go from here?

Can a daily team defense of (pick 4) Torkelson, Jung, Keith, Malloy, and Carpenter be offset by Greene, Meadows, and Baez?  Seems doubtful.  Some moves are going to have to be made.

[4hzglory]

3 hours ago, casimir said:

 

As for Keith, if he were a serious candidate for next season, why wouldn't they have promoted him for September in lieu of a non entity like Ibanez?  And I guess the same could be said for Malloy, why not he rather than Nevin in September?  I suppose there's still time to promote them, but what are we doing here?  Playing time?  Who is blocking them at 2B and 3B in Detroit now?

I think the bigger thing right now is saving the 40 man spots for flexibility around the Rule 5 time - remember 60 day DL players need to be put back on the 40 in the offseason.  And Harris has shown a desire to have flexibility to claim and then potentially pass through waivers guys as a way to build the organization.  Add that to the few protections we need to make and I can easily see why he wouldn't add 2 guys now who would for sure be staying on the 40 man.

[Tiger337]

28 minutes ago, chasfh said:

On a team with designs on a pennant, no and no. On a team struggling to put a decent product on a field while they remake the organization from top to bottom, sure, why not.

I'll be fascinated to see where these guys fit into the plan for this team. The one thing Carpenter has going for him is a good arm for right field. Tork has a wet noodle for his arm which, although not as important for a first baseman, does not pair up well with his near-league-worst range. First base defense does not live on scoops alone.

But Tork and Carpenter are their best hitters (other than Greene who can't stay healthy), so if they don't fit long term, it better be one hell of a plan.  

[oblong]

34 minutes ago, chasfh said:

On a team with designs on a pennant, no and no. On a team struggling to put a decent product on a field while they remake the organization from top to bottom, sure, why not.

I'll be fascinated to see where these guys fit into the plan for this team. The one thing Carpenter has going for him is a good arm for right field. Tork has a wet noodle for his arm which, although not as important for a first baseman, does not pair up well with his near-league-worst range. First base defense does not live on scoops alone.

You know where I sit at games and I notice it a lot now where he fumbles balls, doesn't get to them... yeah the scoops are sexy but not something you want to see too often.  I'm not a hater but he needs to improve his defense to keep playing there.  As a DH he'd be fine on a team with other decent hitters.   But as a fan I don't want a softball team for a lineup. 

[casimir]

6 minutes ago, 4hzglory said:

I think the bigger thing right now is saving the 40 man spots for flexibility around the Rule 5 time - remember 60 day DL players need to be put back on the 40 in the offseason.  And Harris has shown a desire to have flexibility to claim and then potentially pass through waivers guys as a way to build the organization.  Add that to the few protections we need to make and I can easily see why he wouldn't add 2 guys now who would for sure be staying on the 40 man.

The rule 5 is a good point.  I thought Both Malloy and Keith would need to be added prior to this upcoming rule 5 anyway, but I might be wrong about that.

[Cruzer1]

14 minutes ago, casimir said:

The rule 5 is a good point.  I thought Both Malloy and Keith would need to be added prior to this upcoming rule 5 anyway, but I might be wrong about that.

2024.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Malloy and Keith have serious defensive issues,

I thought the recent report was that Keith's problem at 3rd was an arm he was still rehabbing?

[gehringer_2]

23 minutes ago, oblong said:

You know where I sit at games and I notice it a lot now where he fumbles balls, doesn't get to them... yeah the scoops are sexy but not something you want to see too often.  I'm not a hater but he needs to improve his defense to keep playing there.  As a DH he'd be fine on a team with other decent hitters.   But as a fan I don't want a softball team for a lineup. 

It's silly to say it because you'd think it couldn't possible be an issue, but I think for starters he needs to go with a different design or maybe slightly smaller glove. I now these guys all believe to their core that that extra inch of glove is what is going to make them a gold-glover, but Tork's more common problem seems to be not being able to keep the ball in the glove once he gets the glove on the ball. 

[Tiger337]

26 minutes ago, oblong said:

You know where I sit at games and I notice it a lot now where he fumbles balls, doesn't get to them... yeah the scoops are sexy but not something you want to see too often.  I'm not a hater but he needs to improve his defense to keep playing there.  As a DH he'd be fine on a team with other decent hitters.   But as a fan I don't want a softball team for a lineup. 

The softball team approach worked under Dombrowski, but having Miguel Cabrera plus elite starting pitchers solves a lot of problems.  They aren't likely to get away with no bullpen and no defense on a tighter budget

[Cruzer1]

On 9/13/2023 at 10:57 AM, Tiger337 said:

The softball team approach worked under Dombrowski, but having Miguel Cabrera plus elite starting pitchers solves a lot of problems.  They aren't likely to get away with no bullpen and no defense on a tighter budget

They got away with no bullpen or defense under Dombrowski.

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, Cruzer1 said:

They got away with no bullpen or defense under Dombrowski.

Because they spent so much money on starting pitchers and hitters.  I don't think they'll ever have that kind of payroll again.  

[gehringer_2]

6 hours ago, Cruzer1 said:

They got away with no bullpen or defense under Dombrowski.

Only if you call having two pretty good teams fail in the WS 'getting way with it.'  😢

[oblong]

6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Only if you call having two pretty good teams fail in the WS 'getting way with it.'  😢

and '13 was the one that got away.

[Tiger337]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Only if you call having two pretty good teams fail in the WS 'getting way with it.'  😢

Both times they made the World Series, they played poorly in the series overall.  It wasn't necessarily because of defense and bullpen.  I don't know that having sub-par defense or bullpen makes a team more prone to losing in the World Series than having a weakness in another area.  

As others have pointed out, the bullpen played a big role in losing to the Red Sox in 2013, but they would not have gotten as far as they did that year without strong hitting and starting pitching.  I long ago (maybe since 1987!) gave up trying to figure out why teams win or lose in post-season.  It just seems to be a matter of getting hot at the right time.

[oblong]

In '06 I really think the layoff got to them.  They played sloppy which makes me think it's timing and the day to day nature of baseball.  They didn't hit in game 1, won game 2, got shut down by Carpenter in game 3, should have won game 4, and were competitive in game 5.  

In '12 they didn't hit.  Outside of game 1 every game was very close.  They had guys on base in key moments.

In '13 Papi's slam was the big moment but they lost game 3 by a solo HR.  Won game 4.  Played like crap in game 5. Had the lead late in game 6.  Conversely Boston could also say "Hey we lost game 1 by a single run"

Its not a stretch to think they could have won back to back in 2013.  

But these teams were also not as good as we might look back and think.  They never had home field b/c of a better record.

 

[RandyMarsh]

I legit have zero memories of games 2 and 3 of the 2012 World Series, and the only thing I remember about game1 was Sandoval and game 4 was Miggy striking out to end it. It's weird, like I know I watched all the games but my brain just didnt record or register it. 

[romad1]

The best part of our playoff run was the dominance against the Yankees and A's in the post season.  Those series were wonderful.   Our best strategy is to not play anyone else but those teams in the post season. 

[Tiger337]

17 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I legit have zero memories of games 2 and 3 of the 2012 World Series, and the only thing I remember about game1 was Sandoval and game 4 was Miggy striking out to end it. It's weird, like I know I watched all the games but my brain just didnt record or register it. 

I tend not to remember details of individual games.  Even in 1984 which was the best baseball fan time of my life, I don't remember many details of the games.  I remember the Gibson home run off Gossage and the final out, but not a lot of other details.  I vividly remember being really excited and not wanting to miss a single pitch.  I remember how I felt seeing them going 35-5, but again I don't remember the details of games.   

Edited September 18, 2023 by Tiger337

[chasfh]

31 minutes ago, oblong said:

But these teams were also not as good as we might look back and think.  They never had home field b/c of a better record.

 

Absolutely this. The 2012 team had the seventh-best record in the American League. Not the seventh-best in baseball—seventh-best in the American League. Expand out to all MLB and we were tied for eleventh-best with our old buddies, the St Louis Cardinals.

Twenty thirteen was far and away the best team of that era, if looking at nothing else but runs scored versus runs allowed, and it just goes to demonstrate once again the crap-shoot nature of October (and, now, November).

[RandyMarsh]

My favorite memory of that run was Max getting out of the bases loaded no out jam against the A's. Went to a few playoff games during that run and that was one of the rare positive moments out of all of them.

From my vantage point half way down the lf line I thought the last out was gonna be a bases clearing gapper only to see Jackson glide under it for the catch. 

[romad1]

24 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Absolutely this. The 2012 team had the seventh-best record in the American League. Not the seventh-best in baseball—seventh-best in the American League. Expand out to all MLB and we were tied for eleventh-best with our old buddies, the St Louis Cardinals.

Twenty thirteen was far and away the best team of that era, if looking at nothing else but runs scored versus runs allowed, and it just goes to demonstrate once again the crap-shoot nature of October (and, now, November).

That team was scuffling until the trade deadline.  They made a fantastic trade for Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante that shaped the playoff run.  

[oblong]

27 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Absolutely this. The 2012 team had the seventh-best record in the American League. Not the seventh-best in baseball—seventh-best in the American League. Expand out to all MLB and we were tied for eleventh-best with our old buddies, the St Louis Cardinals.

Twenty thirteen was far and away the best team of that era, if looking at nothing else but runs scored versus runs allowed, and it just goes to demonstrate once again the crap-shoot nature of October (and, now, November).

I distinctly remember leaving my final home game in 2012, they went on the road a few games after to close out the season, and the team had just tied the White Sox for first place in the AL Central.  They showed it on the scoreboard, 82-72.  Us regulars in our section were both doing the "I hope to see you soon in the playoffs and Have a good winter, see you next season" types of goodbyes.

 

 

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, oblong said:

I distinctly remember leaving my final home game in 2012, they went on the road a few games after to close out the season, and the team had just tied the White Sox for first place in the AL Central.  They showed it on the scoreboard, 82-72.  Us regulars in our section were both doing the "I hope to see you soon in the playoffs and Have a good winter, see you next season" types of goodbyes.

 

 

Did you go to any of the World Series games in 2012 and 2006? If you went both years, did the 2012 games feel as big as 2006? I decided to not go in 2012 because i didn’t feel it as much that year and I did six years before—although during the playoffs the following year, I was definitely planning on making my way to a World Series game if we’d’ve beaten Boston.