Evaluate Scott Harris' first year

[tiger2022]

18 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Do you want to sign him this off season ? I think Harris had already considered that and said no which factored into his decision. The fail isn't cutting Candy it's not finding a replacement unless he was banking on Colt Keith or Mallory all along.

Not calling anyone specifically out, but Candy really wasn't some tower of power and strength last season.  And before that he was simply just adequate with marginal power.  He had a .217 BA with a .633 OPS in 2022.  Sure, he's having a decent season this year, but I am not sure how you could pencil him in for anything but slightly better than his 2022 season.  If he was playing this year at a 2022 level, many of the same posters would be saying how Harris dodged a bullet by getting rid of him.  Harris probably assumed that Nick Maton would be slightly better than he was this season and at least play up to a Candy 2022 level.

[Edman85]

Here is an interesting thing I noticed. It does appear as if Al Avila didn't like to claim players on waivers if it meant dropping somebody from the 40 man. Of his 18 claims, only three involved removing somebody from the roster. It is like the organizational edict was to only shop the waiver wire if there was room on the roster.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, tiger2022 said:

Not calling anyone specifically out, but Candy really wasn't some tower of power and strength last season.  And before that he was simply just adequate with marginal power.  He had a .217 BA with a .633 OPS in 2022.  Sure, he's having a decent season this year, but I am not sure how you could pencil him in for anything but slightly better than his 2022 season.  If he was playing this year at a 2022 level, many of the same posters would be saying how Harris dodged a bullet by getting rid of him.  Harris probably assumed that Nick Maton would be slightly better than he was this season and at least play up to a Candy 2022 level.

I agree if Jeimer did play at 2022 levels, many of those posters might have said Harris dodged a bullet by getting rid of him. But Harris didn't dodge any bullets because Jeimer was much better.

Edited September 5, 2023 by chasfh

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I agree if Jeimer did play at 2022 levels, many of those posters might have said Harris dodged a bullet by getting rid of him. But Harris didn't dodge any bullets because Jeimer was much better.

And he is NOT playing at his 2022 level, he's playing at his 2020-21 level...

Which was the point you and I were making all winter long.

Expecting ONLY a 2022 repeat performance was NOT a reasonable expectation.

I think Lee wanted him back too, although I don't remember any specific performance expectations or what his reasoning was....

But you and I both expected a 1.5-ish WAR performance (you), or better (me: a I expected a recovery to near 2020-21 levels), and... LOOK!!! He has a 3.2 WAR this year!!!

It simply was a better offseason decision (not counting money) to jettison Schoop (sunk cost) and free up 2B (easier position to fill than 3B) to be filled with youngsters trying to grab a starting position spot and to invest arbitration money ($7 mill or so...) in a competent 3B'man, who, if PUSHED out of his job by a youngster then fine, trade him at the deadline, even if the return isn't all that much. Which meant hold onto Candy and dump Schoop. Easy position swap. If not trade deadline, then hold onto him until FA and let him walk for a draft pick (would he have gotten us a draft pick? dunno...).

But then again... you know... spilt milk...

So c'est la vie...

[Tenacious D]

The return that the Nationals received for Candelario removed any concerns with non-tendering him for me.  He was always going to be a stopgap that would have been traded at the deadline.  Yes, we missed his production for four months, but his destiny was always to be shipped.

Next!

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

The return that the Nationals received for Candelario removed any concerns with non-tendering him for me.  He was always going to be a stopgap that would have been traded at the deadline.  Yes, we missed his production for four months, but his destiny was always to be shipped.

Next!

You actually only missed his production for 2 and a half months.  On May 14 his OPS was .630.  And the trade return at the deadline was the square root of Sweet FA.  So all this angst about keeping him, months after Hinch decided that a bounce back was not likely, I don't get it. 

If Hinch had wanted him back, he would have been back.  It's easy to understand Harris' position, if you stink like Candelario in 2022 you don't get a 40% raise.  But if Hinch had wanted him, he would have been back, no question about it.

I don't think Hinch was wrong, and the fortunes of the organization were not affected one way or the other.

[mtutiger]

6 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

If Hinch had wanted him back, he would have been back.  It's easy to understand Harris' position, if you stink like Candelario in 2022 you don't get a 40% raise.  But if Hinch had wanted him, he would have been back, no question about it.

I don't think Hinch was wrong, and the fortunes of the organization were not affected one way or the other.

I do think this is 100% right.

Harris wears it because he's the PBO and it is his job, but Hinch had to manage Candy in 2022 and there were times in 2022 where it was pretty apparent he was being held out of the lineup and that he was a source of frustration for Hinch and the rest of the coaching staff.

That all tends to get memory holed whenever this comes up: Candy wasn't just incidental to the failures of 2022, he was a feature of it. The Harris team didn't get it done in replacing him, but the decision to move on in and of itself may have been the best thing for all parties involved... I tend to believe that Candy did need a change of scenery.

[alex]

The two previous posts (JimCowan & Mtutiger), IMHO, hit spot on for the Candy situation.

Hindsight will always be 20/20 and Echoes repeatedly mentioned (and of course a few others) before hand about keeping him and letting Schoop go - but no doubt contract status was 'part' of that decision as well.

[Tiger337]

22 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

And he is NOT playing at his 2022 level, he's playing at his 2020-21 level...

Which was the point you and I were making all winter long.

Expecting ONLY a 2022 repeat performance was NOT a reasonable expectation.

I think Lee wanted him back too, although I don't remember any specific performance expectations or what his reasoning was....

 

 

Same reasoning.. and the projection systems agreed with us.   

[Edman85]

The tender decision that surprised me was Jose Cisnero. I had him near the top of my offseason chop list, but he got tendered a contract.

[casimir]

25 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

The tender decision that surprised me was Jose Cisnero. I had him near the top of my offseason chop list, but he got tendered a contract.

Same here.

[mtutiger]

14 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

You actually only missed his production for 2 and a half months.  On May 14 his OPS was .630.  And the trade return at the deadline was the square root of Sweet FA.  So all this angst about keeping him, months after Hinch decided that a bounce back was not likely, I don't get it. 

If Hinch had wanted him back, he would have been back.  It's easy to understand Harris' position, if you stink like Candelario in 2022 you don't get a 40% raise.  But if Hinch had wanted him, he would have been back, no question about it.

I don't think Hinch was wrong, and the fortunes of the organization were not affected one way or the other.

I do think the sentiment in the highlighted should be reflected on a bit - not that I see the insinuation a ton here, but in the broader Tiger dialogue online it is sometimes insinuated that there's a bunch of daylight between Harris and Hinch on some of these personnel decisions, whether it's Candy or how certain players aren't getting called up quickly enough or that Hinch has used certain players more than he should to prove some sort of point to Harris (Maton is the best example here - as galaxy brain as it sounds, our old buddy Sportz has made this claim a few times this season). And there just isn't any evidence whatsoever to back it up the idea that there's any meaningful daylight between the two at this point, just pure vibes.

It's almost like, for whatever reason, people project their own thoughts or emotions onto Hinch despite any lack of evidence that he thinks any of this stuff. I suppose it stems from the inferiority complex our fanbase has that someone who won a WS as a manager ended up managing this ballclub (particularly at the juncture he took the job), I don't know, but it's strange regardless.

Edited September 6, 2023 by mtutiger

[SoCalTiger]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

I do think the sentiment in the highlighted should be reflected on a bit - not that I see the insinuation a ton here, but in the broader Tiger dialogue online it is sometimes insinuated that there's a bunch of daylight between Harris and Hinch on some of these personnel decisions, whether it's Candy or how certain players aren't getting called up quickly enough or that Hinch has used certain players more than he should to prove some sort of point to Harris (Maton is the best example here - as galaxy brain as it sounds, our old buddy Sportz has made this claim a few times this season). And there just isn't any evidence whatsoever to back it up the idea that there's any meaningful daylight between the two at this point, just pure vibes.

It's almost like, for whatever reason, people project their own thoughts or emotions onto Hinch despite any lack of evidence that he thinks any of this stuff. I suppose it stems from the inferiority complex our fanbase has that someone who won a WS as a manager ended up managing this ballclub (particularly at the juncture he took the job), I don't know, but it's strange regardless.

My impression is they are on the same page but Harris is clearly setting the agenda. In fact I interpreted Hinch playing Maton so long because Harris told him too not the other way around. Same thing with Avila when Hinch played Lugo so much. GM's want the players they traded for on the field sometimes to a fault. maybe often to a fault. 

[casimir]

We also heard the rumor of Leyland playing a guy or two more than he should have to prove a point to Dombrowski.  So, I’m not sure how much I buy into the current situation.  Or maybe it’s a slick move by salty managers.

[Edman85]

Hinch never managed Lugo.

[SoCalTiger]

46 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Hinch never managed Lugo.

Yes I know but the point being managers follows  their bosses wish. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by SoCalTiger

[chasfh]

6 hours ago, Edman85 said:

The tender decision that surprised me was Jose Cisnero. I had him near the top of my offseason chop list, but he got tendered a contract.

They apparently thought they were going to move him to some team who wouldn’t look so far under the hood of his topline numbers.

Edited September 7, 2023 by chasfh

[Edman85]

Trivia! (wasn't sure which thread to put this in)

The Diamondbacks DFA'ed Tyler Holton to make room for whom?

[chasfh]

17 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Trivia! (wasn't sure which thread to put this in)

The Diamondbacks DFA'ed Tyler Holton to make room for whom?

It’s gotta be Chafin.

[Edman85]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

It’s gotta be Chafin.

Yepppp.

I have a point in there somewhere about the roster cost of signing veterans.

[chasfh]

15 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Yepppp.

I have a point in there somewhere about the roster cost of signing veterans.

Did Chafin even want to come back? Do we know either way?

[Tiger337]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Did Chafin even want to come back? Do we know either way?

He signed with Arizona so he could live near his Ohio farm.  

[casimir]

4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

He signed with Arizona so he could live near his Ohio farm.  

Failed starter, failed geography.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, casimir said:

We also heard the rumor of Leyland playing a guy or two more than he should have to prove a point to Dombrowski.  So, I’m not sure how much I buy into the current situation.  Or maybe it’s a slick move by salty managers.

Leyland is the kind of guy who would do that. Hinch, I doubt it.

[Jim Cowan]

59 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

He signed with Arizona so he could live near his Ohio farm.  

People do overlook the fact that Arizona was a homecoming for him, he spent the first 10 years of his pro career there and was there as recently as early 2020.  It was a very natural choice for him to make.