09/19/2023 10:10pm EDT Detroit Tigers vs Los Angeles Dodgers

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

That's the thing with relievers.  They become relievers because they don't have enough pitches to start.  They can get away with that in short inning stints for a while, but they tend not to peak very long.  

Right, your average reliever doesn't have a third pitch, which usually either results in a bad platoon split or just inability to show a batter anything 2nd or 3rd time through. Problem for Lange is that he is down to ONE pitch.

Now if the one pitch is a fastball or cutter and you can command so well that you never miss hitting only the corners, (looking at you Mariano) then you can get away with one pitch, otherwise, not so much!

Edited September 20, 2023 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Didn't Greene's injury happen in LF?

Yes.

[casimir]

17 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Right, your average reliever doesn't have a third pitch, which usually either results in a bad platoon split or just inability to show a batter anything 2nd or 3rd time through. Problem for Lange is that he is down to ONE pitch.

Now if the one pitch is a fastball or cutter and you can command so well that you never miss hitting only the corners, (looking at you Mariano) then you can get away with one pitch, otherwise, not so much!

Yup.  There's only uno Mariano.  Everybody else better find multiple pitches.

[chasfh]

20 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

well, I don't really care what he says about it, I'd prefer he act to reduce Lange's leverage because he has better choices. I know they don't really care if they win games right now, but as a fan I don't have to accept that.

You're right not to accept it. That's our prerogative as fans. And maybe Hinch will act to immediately reduce Lange's role with the team after last night. I also would not be surprised if he doesn't change Lange's role with the team at all, to try to boost Lange's confidence. It make not make any sense to us that Hinch would care anything about Lange's confidence after blowing the save last night, but I would guess he has valid reasons beyond he simply doesn't care whether his team wins or loses. Maybe he wants to give Lange a chance to have a strong finish so he's motivated to work harder over the winter, or to come into spring with more confidence, or maybe even to make him more attractive in trade over the winter. Who knows. I'm pretty sure when it comes to Lange, Hinch has reasons and a plan for him and the team.

[oblong]

25 minutes ago, casimir said:

Yup.  There's only uno Mariano.  Everybody else better find multiple pitches.

The save stat is so unique in that it's probably the only stat that dictates, or dictated, personnel moves.  You have a designated pitcher who only comes in when nobody's on base and all you need is 3 outs and is expected to only pitch 1 inning.  In that scenario a decent pitcher who have success and rack up a good number of saves.  So then front offices think you need to build around that.

You don't build bullpens.  Bullpens happen because of failure and they are fleeting.

  

[casimir]

21 minutes ago, oblong said:

The save stat is so unique in that it's probably the only stat that dictates, or dictated, personnel moves.  You have a designated pitcher who only comes in when nobody's on base and all you need is 3 outs and is expected to only pitch 1 inning.  In that scenario a decent pitcher who have success and rack up a good number of saves.  So then front offices think you need to build around that.

You don't build bullpens.  Bullpens happen because of failure and they are fleeting.

  

I hate the save stat.  Rivera's career 1.0 WHIP, 2.21 ERA, and 2.76 FIP seem more impressive to me.  Heck, beyond the career numbers, he was the same pitcher year after year.  At a position that sees its fair share of ebbs and flows, he was both dominant and consistent.

The guy truly shortened the game by an inning.  Teams had 8 innings to outscore the Yankees.  For damn near 20 seasons.

Edited September 20, 2023 by casimir

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

after they sign Josh Hader, we won't see much of Lange in the 9th

That...

And/or I'll put in a plug for Tyler Mattison to graduate from Erie to "The Show" next year. He will take over the "Closer's" role...

Just a WAG.

[gehringer_2]

59 minutes ago, casimir said:

I hate the save stat.  Rivera's career 1.0 WHIP, 2.21 ERA, and 2.76 FIP seem more impressive to me.  Heck, beyond the career numbers, he was the same pitcher year after year.  At a position that sees its fair share of ebbs and flows, he was both dominant and consistent.

The guy truly shortened the game by an inning.  Teams had 8 innings to outscore the Yankees.  For damn near 20 seasons.

the fun thing with Mariano was to look at his strike zone heat maps. Always a big white hole in the middle-middle. He just didn't miss over the middle of the plate very often. 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Maybe he wants to give Lange a chance to...

Well exactly. But that doesn't mean I have to like it, or believe that a pretty non-standard pitch profile like Lange's has a high probability of being a consistent answer. He's an outlier to the usual successful reliever, so when he falters, I think skepticism is maybe more warranted than with a guy like - say, Aroldis Chapman (who even earlier in his career was a little up and down....) whose tools are those that are traditionally successful in the role. If the Tigers want to give him all the rope in the world, go for it, but I'm reserving the right to say "I told you so" if it doesn't work out.  

Edited September 20, 2023 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

Just now, gehringer_2 said:

Well exactly. But that doesn't mean I have to like it, or believe that a pretty non-standard pitch profile like Lange's has a high probability of being a consistent answer. He's an outlier to the usual successful reliever, so when he falters, I think skepticism is maybe more warranted then with a guy like - say, Aroldis Chapman, whose tools are those that are traditionally successful in the role. If the Tigers want to give him all the rope in the world, go for it, but I reserve the right to say "I told you so" if it doesn't work out.  

I'm not anything like Team Lange, so you don't have to tell me so. 😁

[Tiger337]

Remember when people were saying that the Tigers shouldn't trade Lange because has so many years of control left?  That argument never works for relievers.  

[gehringer_2]

15 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Remember when people were saying that the Tigers shouldn't trade Lange because has so many years of control left?  That argument never works for relievers.  

Basically true, but there are guys who are good over an extended time - again, Chapman, who was good over about 12 yrs, comes to mind. But there you are talking about the one true weapon - a really great fastball. So I think the pitch profile matters. I think historically it's just harder to maintain command of a better than average breaking ball from year to year than to keep throwing a great fastball if you have the arm to do it. To me, on this staff that means I like the odds better that Foley - basically a high nineties fastball pitcher, will be more consistent over time at the level you expect from him, than Lange - even if Lange, when he is 'on' may be more dominant in stretches. 

In general I'm just not a big fan of guys who pitch backwards from their breaking ball even though you seem to see more of it now.

Edited September 20, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Sports_Freak]

I feel bad for the fans who stayed up late and made it to the 8th inning just to watch the Tigers BP blow another game. Yeah, I feel bad for those 9 fans...🤣🤣🤣

[SoCalTiger]

Lange can’t control his fastball. Isn’t that enough to know he can’t close ?

[theroundsquare]

14 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

I feel bad for the fans who stayed up late and made it to the 8th inning just to watch the Tigers BP blow another game. Yeah, I feel bad for those 9 fans...🤣🤣🤣

I was listening, does that make me one of the nine

[Sports_Freak]

6 hours ago, theroundsquare said:

I was listening, does that make me one of the nine

Lol... I didn't even start watching. If I would have, I would have stayed up until the end. I saw most of it on the Bally replay. Parker!!

[chasfh]

19 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Lange can’t control his fastball. Isn’t that enough to know he can’t close ?

That was always the thing with him—he had all the tools except command, and if he could lick his problem with walks, he could potentially be one of the elite closers. It’s just that his best pitch is so hard to control, it looks like he may never get to that exact point. I do believe he still has a good chance to have a decent career because left-headers who can wipe out hitters are very valuable, and he does have a very low sOPS+ against even RHHs. Whether we keep him, or we dump him because he can’t reach the pinnacle, he’ll be fine. I wouldn’t be too surprised if he sticks around all next year, barring abject collapse.

[gehringer_2]

18 minutes ago, chasfh said:

That was always the thing with him—he had all the tools except command, and if he could lick his problem with walks, he could potentially be one of the elite closers. It’s just that his best pitch is so hard to control, it looks like he may never get to that exact point. I do believe he still has a good chance to have a decent career because left-headers who can wipe out hitters are very valuable, and he does have a very low sOPS+ against even RHHs. Whether we keep him, or we dump him because he can’t reach the pinnacle, he’ll be fine. I wouldn’t be too surprised if he sticks around all next year, barring abject collapse.

A question with Lange is why he doesn't dump the 2 seamer for a 4 seamer. if you are throwing it against a curve, a 4 seamer will give you just as good deception and it's generally more controllable. Could be the answer is that is that he throws a very flat 4 seamer, 

[TigersForever1256]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:10 AM, Sports_Freak said:

Didn't Greene's injury happen in LF?

Correct, sirrah.