Week Seven: Detroit Lions (5-1) @ Baltimore Ravens (4-2)

[1984Echoes]

No, not good teams.

Super Bowl teams like the 1991 Redskins.

I think the Lions have a damn fine team. They'll make the playoffs and win a game or two. But I don't think we're in the highest, top, Super Bowl contender tier just yet.

My question is: how do we get there so that we are not the 1991 Lions? Or at least advance PAST the 1991 Lions, if not this year, then next year.

I don't think preparing and executing a game plan beats the Ravens.

I think we need 100% health on the O-line, Montgomery, and Gibbs/ Jamo/ LaPorta operating at 100% (and not going through rookie learning curves) to beat the Ravens.

And at least two more upper echelon defensive playmakers, to beat the Ravens.

Oh, and yes, execution of a great game plan, as well.

IMO.

This is like, the 10th time, that I've stated exactly the same thing.

[NYLion]

Well, I didn't see the other 9 times you explained yourself, I just quoted one post.

You're giving the coaches an excuse as if the Lions were supposed to get blown out by the Ravens. No, this was a clinic on how not to execute. It started on the 1st drive when they let Lamar of all people get a free and easy walk in to the end zone on 4th down and it spiraled from there, not one player even close to him. The Lions weren't prepared to play this game, flat out, and that reflects at least partially on the coaches. I disagree that they had no shot to beat the Ravens if they executed.

Also, the 1991 Redskins were an all time great team so that's quite a high bar to set if that's the analogy you're shooting for for where the Lions should be.

Edited October 23, 2023 by NYLion

[1984Echoes]

14 minutes ago, NYLion said:

1) You're giving the coaches an excuse... a clinic on how not to execute.

2) The Lions weren't prepared to play this game, flat out, and that reflects at least partially on the coaches.

3) I disagree that they had no shot to beat the Ravens if they executed.

4) Also, the 1991 Redskins were an all time great team so that's quite a high bar to set if that's the analogy you're shooting for for where the Lions should be.

1) Coaches don't execute, players do.

2) Maybe. Maybe the coaches tried to prepare the team and the players just fell apart and didn't execute, despite the preparation. I don't know the answer to this so I don't want to speculate players versus coaches culpability...

3) Feel free to disagree. But I disagree with your disagreement. I don't think execution gets the Lions any closer to beating the Ravens. The Ravens were simply the superior team - talent-wise - and it showed. Maybe execution helps, a little bit. But the Lions were completely demolished by the Ravens. That's more than just "execution".

4) That's where I'd like the Lions to get to. Or at least a close enough facsimile to grab a Super Bowl or two...

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by 1984Echoes

[NYLion]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

1) Coaches don't execute, players do.

2) Maybe. Maybe the coaches tried to prepare the team and the players just fell apart and didn't execute, despite the preparation. I don't know the answer to this so I don't want to speculate players versus coaches culpability...

3) Feel free to disagree. But I disagree with your disagreement. I don't think execution gets the Lions any closer to beating the Ravens. The Ravens were simply the superior team - talent-wise - and it showed. Maybe execution helps, a little bit. But the Lions were completely demolished by the Ravens. That's more than just "execution".

4) That's where I'd like the Lions to get to. Or at least a close enough facsimile to grab a Super Bowl or two...

 

 

 

If you're right about #3 then the Lions have no hope and they are a bad team OR the Ravens are the 2000 Ravens on steroids.

I refuse to believe that the Lions have zero shot to compete with the Ravens no matter how well they play. To me, this was a really bad day (a one-off) in which they weren't prepared to play against a good team on the road just like last year against the Panthers but it's fair to agree to disagree.

[1984Echoes]

The 2023 Ravens:

With Lamar Jackson.

And a new offense, that appears everyone on their team actually figured out how to run it, yesterday.

And the NFL's #2 defense (as of yesterday).

And #1 pass-rush (as of yesterday).

Will show us the rest of this season whether or not they are an unstoppable juggernaut.

I won't make anymore comparisons until after the end of the season until we see where that ends up...

[1984Echoes]

17 minutes ago, NYLion said:

If you're right about #3 then the Lions have no hope and they are a bad team ...

This part I disagree with.

It just seems funny to me how everyone is giving ZERO credit to Lamar Jackson, John Harbaugh, their defense... and relying on "we only needed to execute better" as the reason...

[Jason_R]

2 hours ago, NYLion said:

You're acting like this is the 2008 Lions that should get blown out by good teams because they didn't stand a chance no matter what they do. The Lions can compete with Baltimore if they were prepared and executed their gameplan. It's on the players of course but this team got outcoached massively.

With that said, they are an impact player or two away from Superbowl contention so I'll agree with you there.

Campbell’s hallmark has been his aggressiveness. The Baltimore staff took it right away. Baltimore was the aggressor and the Lions — coaches and players — were on their heels all game  

Baltimore won the coin toss, took the ball, challenged the Lions defense to keep up with Lamar’s versatility and they couldn’t do it. They exposed Jack Campbell as a rookie. I still think he will get there someday but he was not there yesterday  

On Detroit’s first offensive drive they gave it to Gibbs for four yards. Not bad. Had Montgomery been healthy they would have fed him again, played to their strength, and given the defense time to regroup. But they were afraid to put too much on Gibbs — and I’m sure Baltimore knew it. (Even with garbage time he only got 11 carries.) Instead Goff threw an incomplete on a weak throw to the flat, then took a sack. The defense was already shell-shocked. By the second offensive play of the game it was easy to see the Lions were in for a long day. 

Yes, Detroit’s lack of depth at RB and CB got exposed. Their lack of high end skill at DT got exposed. They could still use a big, physical receiver who can make contested catches. (Josh Reynolds is not quite this guy.) But they fell into the same habits that have plagued them against Hurts and Geno Smith in the past. The coaches did not have the team ready to play and they should take this one on the chin. 

[lordstanley]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

The 2023 Ravens:

With Lamar Jackson.

And a new offense, that appears everyone on their team actually figured out how to run it, yesterday.

And the NFL's #2 defense (as of yesterday).

And #1 pass-rush (as of yesterday).

Will show us the rest of this season whether or not they are an unstoppable juggernaut.

I won't make anymore comparisons until after the end of the season until we see where that ends up...

Or Baltimore looked at season game film, seeing that teams weren't able to beat the Lions' offense and defense, and threw at the Lions new offensive and defensive game plans that the Lions had absolutely no answer for in real-time. I can't believe that the difference in rosters is that great. If they were to meet again in the playoffs, maybe Campbell et al will recognize how the Ravens completely exposed them and will have made adjustments to close that. 

Same reason I wouldn't have wanted Michigan to have had to play OSU in a rematch one month after last year's game.

[MichiganCardinal]

Just now, 1984Echoes said:

This part I disagree with.

It just seems funny to me how everyone is giving ZERO credit to Lamar Jackson, John Harbaugh, their defense... and relying on "we only needed to execute better" as the reason...

I think we needed to execute better (for lack of a better term) to not completely embarrass ourselves.

Actually winning is a different story, and it's impossible to see how close we could have been to winning without having first not completely embarrassed ourselves.

To quote a famed Detroit roller coaster, "sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug"... Yesterday, we were the bug.

[KnoxP]

4 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Campbell’s hallmark has been his aggressiveness. The Baltimore staff took it right away. Baltimore was the aggressor and the Lions — coaches and players — were on their heels all game  

Baltimore won the coin toss, took the ball, challenged the Lions defense to keep up with Lamar’s versatility and they couldn’t do it. 

Great point.  

[1984Echoes]

4 minutes ago, lordstanley said:

... I can't believe that the difference in rosters is that great...

It is.

Our defense can't hold a candle to theirs or the 49'ers. This isn't some hidden secret. It's just a fact, and a known fact by anyone who follows football.

And you're still giving ZERO credit to Lamar Jackson.

Why?

[1984Echoes]

7 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

1) I think we needed to execute better (for lack of a better term) to not completely embarrass ourselves.

2) Actually winning is a different story, and it's impossible to see how close we could have been to winning without having first not completely embarrassed ourselves...

1) This I agree with.

2) I also agree with this. And I would add: health at key positions. And learning curves (and health) from rookies who are playing key parts in the Lions season this year: And that includes Branch & Campbell, as well as Gibbs, Jamo (essentially a rookie), and LaPorta.

 

Further, maybe this time next year, with just growth from our existing players, rookies and all (and pretending that we have zero players adds/ minuses from now till then): I think we also play much better. 1 Year additional experience playing at a higher level and against top=level teams. We'll have a 1st place schedule next year instead of an easy one this year. Health (maybe). And second year of experience for all of the above-mentioned. And even add in Brodric Martin who they're trying to mold into a monster DT (super-raw right now from team reports) and we have absolutely no clue how that will turn out...

So yeah, I think next year results are different from this years results (better, IMO).

I'm eager and brainstorming and scheming right now though... how to get the Lions to that upper echelon level, versus their very very good but not with the top dawgs level it looks like they're in right now...

Just me 2 cents.

[number20]

I think the Lions showed yesterday how young they are, and both Harbaugh and Carroll showed how inexperienced the Lions coaching staff is.

One positive so far this season: at least they’re beating teams they’re supposed to beat, which is something previous regimes haven’t always done

[NYLion]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

This part I disagree with.

It just seems funny to me how everyone is giving ZERO credit to Lamar Jackson, John Harbaugh, their defense... and relying on "we only needed to execute better" as the reason...

You're twisting my words. I'm not giving zero credit to the Ravens, they played a great game and are full marks for imposing their will on the game and executing their gameplan perfectly. What I'm saying is that the Lions brought their D game and are capable of doing MUCH better than whatever the heck that was on Sunday. Does that mean they're ready to beat a team like Baltimore on the road in an outside stadium? I don't know but I do know if they are a lot more competitive if they were prepared for this game.

The reality is that the Lions are still a very young team that has a learning curve ahead, coaches and players, while the Ravens have experience and know exactly how to play games like this. I think it'll be a good lesson learned for the Lions in the long run, or at least I hope.

Edited October 23, 2023 by NYLion

[Jason_R]

56 minutes ago, NYLion said:

The reality is that the Lions are still a very young team that has a learning curve ahead, coaches and players, while the Ravens have experience and know exactly how to play games like this. I think it'll be a good lesson learned for the Lions in the long run, or at least I hope.

John Harbaugh has been doing this for a very long time. And obviously coaching is in his blood. His crew dominated our crew. 

His long term plan for Lamar worked to perfection yesterday. If they were going to pay Lamar, they can’t treat him like a disposable running back anymore. They have to make him a passer. He hadn’t had a breakout game under Monken yet but yesterday was it. 

[MichiganCardinal]

I maintain that this is just part of the Dan Campbell package. His run through a wall, kneecap biting mentality, where the team gives it 110% can only work x number of times per season. Sometimes your talent is enough to win ugly anyway, but there will be some number of games per season where the energy and the will to win just isn’t there and the other team pounds you to embarrassment. You hope you don’t get injured in the process and then on Tuesday you get back to work.

Some games lend themselves to being easier to rile the troops. A 1pm road game at 5-1 where you’re in contention for #1 in the power rankings and the other team is gunning for you, no. Monday Night at home against a lesser opponent after getting your ass kicked, yes. I expect a relatively easy win.

FWIW, Dan Campbell’s Lions are 6-2 against the spread after a loss by 14+. The only two losses ATS came in a row around this time last year, to Dallas and then Miami. They will bounce back.

[buddha]

goff was total garbage yesterday.  a windy day and he threw a bunch of ducks.  he went back to turning his back whenever pressure came.  he either wasnt seeing it pre-snap or the ravens just beat the lions oline.  or both.

everyone on offense was crap yesterday from dan campbell to ben johnson to jared goff to even amon ra dropping passing.

jamo looks lost.  running bad routes.  dropping balls.  not fighting for it.  his weapon is deep speed and if goff cant the ball to him because it was too windy, then that's off the board.  so far he's a bust.  

the vaunted oline was ****.  couldnt block anyone.

the defense was garbage other than hutchinson who was held most of the game.  

jack campbell?  oy vey.  and he played a ton.  where's rodrigo?

they missed jerry jacobs but it probably didnt matter, the ravens won by winning the line of scrimmage on both sides.

hey, they got hamblasted by carolina last year too.  but this time they dont have the "it was cold and we didnt have our sneakers" defense.  they can bounce back from this.  hopefully.

but as all of us are saying, they dont have playmakers on defense other than hutch.  they lost gardner-johnson and that's really hurting them, imo.

[number20]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

goff was total garbage yesterday.  a windy day and he threw a bunch of ducks.  he went back to turning his back whenever pressure came.  he either wasnt seeing it pre-snap or the ravens just beat the lions oline.  or both.

Goff has been pretty amazing so far this year (sans yesterday), but his lack of mobility is such a glaring f***ing weakness

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, NYLion said:

... The reality is that the Lions are still a very young team that has a learning curve ahead, coaches and players, while the Ravens have experience and know exactly how to play games like this. I think it'll be a good lesson learned for the Lions in the long run, or at least I hope.

I definitely agree with this...

[Jason_R]

1 hour ago, number20 said:

Goff has been pretty amazing so far this year (sans yesterday), but his lack of mobility is such a glaring f***ing weakness

His lack of mobility is part of it but the bigger issue yesterday was that Campbell went into the game basically saying we don’t have a running game without Montgomery and we don’t trust Gibbs. Then they demonstrated they don’t trust Gibbs. At that point it was open season on Goff. 

Montgomery has been their offensive MVP. Just like Gurley was in LA. 

[number20]

14 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

His lack of mobility is part of it but the bigger issue yesterday was that Campbell went into the game basically saying we don’t have a running game without Montgomery and we don’t trust Gibbs. Then they demonstrated they don’t trust Gibbs. At that point it was open season on Goff. 

Montgomery has been their offensive MVP. Just like Gurley was in LA. 

Totally agree, he's their "tone setter". But it's hard to say whether Montgomery would've made much of a difference yesterday. The defense put Ben Johnson in such a massively deep hole, so early, that he pretty much had to abandon the run game. I think Gibbs only had 3-4 carries the entire 1st half

[Jason_R]

58 minutes ago, number20 said:

Totally agree, he's their "tone setter". But it's hard to say whether Montgomery would've made much of a difference yesterday. The defense put Ben Johnson in such a massively deep hole, so early, that he pretty much had to abandon the run game. I think Gibbs only had 3-4 carries the entire 1st half

Gibbs ran for four on their first carry. I don’t know why they didn’t hand it off again. When they didn’t, and dialed up that weak pass to the flat, I realized they were playing scared. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

2 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Gibbs ran for four on their first carry. I don’t know why they didn’t hand it off again. When they didn’t, and dialed up that weak pass to the flat, I realized they were playing scared. 

Gibbs hasn't looked sensational by any means, but he's had good runs in and outside the tackles, but they seem comfortable sticking with him and giving him a heavy workload just yet. If you can get 4 yards a carry consistently that's really good, but they aren't giving him enough carries to fully judge how he would do yet as a runner, not just a weapon.

[Jason_R]

17 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Gibbs hasn't looked sensational by any means, but he's had good runs in and outside the tackles, but they seem comfortable sticking with him and giving him a heavy workload just yet. If you can get 4 yards a carry consistently that's really good, but they aren't giving him enough carries to fully judge how he would do yet as a runner, not just a weapon.

I know garbage time started early on Sunday but they didn’t give Gibbs many carries until garbage time. I think the staff feels like they need to protect him.

But I also heard Gibbs marveling last week that he didn’t know how Montgomery handled that big workload.