buddha Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 57 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: It's not going to cost Kasper or Edvinsson to get Lindholm. But nice try... lol. ok nhl gm. let's send a 4th round pick and Holl's contract. done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 59 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I was talking O, not D. As for D, I'd rather have under-30 Hanifin or Andersson than 34 yo Tanev. ok. so what will you accept for trading patrick kane? and once you give up a box of trinkets for the #1 player on the market (lindholm), what are you signing him for and who does he replace? and dont cop out with "i'll let steve yzerman decide that." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 9 minutes ago, buddha said: ok. so what will you accept for trading patrick kane? and once you give up a box of trinkets for the #1 player on the market (lindholm), what are you signing him for and who does he replace? and dont cop out with "i'll let steve yzerman decide that." Well... Since I'm NOT a GM... I WILL let Yzerman decide... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Well... Since I'm NOT a GM... I WILL let Yzerman decide... ok. pronman has kasper rated the #77 prospect in the nhl. if youre calgary and you have the #1 player on the trade market are you going to accept LESS than the #77 prospect in hockey for him? do you think some other team might be able to beat that package? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, buddha said: i wouldnt trade kane, i would re-sign him Resigning Kane seems doubtful to me. I don't think Yzerman is interested in commitment to any older players. I think Kane came here as a short term marriage of convenience. The Wings have few enough highly talented players he would be able to get into the lineup here even at less than 100% and from the Wings side the cost of the upside potential of some short term production was low. I suppose if the Wings think any offensive help in the minors is further than they had hoped, I could see another one year offer, but if Kane stays healthy the rest of the way I can't see him accepting a one yr deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Resigning Kane seems doubtful to me. I don't think Yzerman is interested in commitment to any older players. I think Kane came here as a short term marriage of convenience. The Wings have few enough highly talented players he would be able to get into the lineup here even at less than 100% and from the Wings side the cost of the upside potential of some short term production was low. I suppose if the Wings think any offensive help in the minors is further than they had hoped, I could see another one year offer, but if Kane stays healthy the rest of the way I can't see him accepting a one yr deal. nobody was willing to beat the wings' offer this year. 2 years at $5m ought to get it done if he can continue to produce and stay healthy. the cap is going up and youre going to lose perron after this year and will need another offensive forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 21 minutes ago, buddha said: ok. pronman has kasper rated the #77 prospect in the nhl. if youre calgary and you have the #1 player on the trade market are you going to accept LESS than the #77 prospect in hockey for him? do you think some other team might be able to beat that package? Get back to you after I resolve a 10K problem I need to fix... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 54 minutes ago, buddha said: ok. pronman has kasper rated the #77 prospect in the nhl. if youre calgary and you have the #1 player on the trade market are you going to accept LESS than the #77 prospect in hockey for him? do you think some other team might be able to beat that package? Real quickly before I get back to work: How does Timo Meier compare to Lindholm? I looked at that trade and: 1st, conditional 2nd, NHL'er Fabian Zetterland (who do we have that compares? Better than Veleno, not as good as Raymond...) and defensive prospect Shakir Mukhamadullin... so maybe that is Kasper. Not certain of a Mukha comp we have... maybe Wallinder or Johansson? Mukha is the Sharks 5th rated prospect and Wallinder is ours... just for example. So I might be correct that we don't need to offer a top 4 prospect (Danielson, Edvinsson, Kasper, Pellikka), but I didn't look at overall rankings. And if someone beats us (I don't mind offering anyone outside of the top 4) than no dice, I think. But then again, maybe I top someone's offer with Kasper if that's what it takes. Would you rather have Kasper as #2 Center or Elias Lindholm? I'm thinking Lindholm so maybe I say yes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 34 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Real quickly before I get back to work: How does Timo Meier compare to Lindholm? I looked at that trade and: 1st, conditional 2nd, NHL'er Fabian Zetterland (who do we have that compares? Better than Veleno, not as good as Raymond...) and defensive prospect Shakir Mukhamadullin... so maybe that is Kasper. Not certain of a Mukha comp we have... maybe Wallinder or Johansson? Mukha is the Sharks 5th rated prospect and Wallinder is ours... just for example. So I might be correct that we don't need to offer a top 4 prospect (Danielson, Edvinsson, Kasper, Pellikka), but I didn't look at overall rankings. And if someone beats us (I don't mind offering anyone outside of the top 4) than no dice, I think. But then again, maybe I top someone's offer with Kasper if that's what it takes. Would you rather have Kasper as #2 Center or Elias Lindholm? I'm thinking Lindholm so maybe I say yes... i dont want to pay lindholm $6-7 million a year to keep him. i dont want to trade a first rounder for a rental. so i dont think the wings are in position to deal for lindholm right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 18 hours ago, buddha said: i dont want to pay lindholm $6-7 million a year to keep him. i dont want to trade a first rounder for a rental. so i dont think the wings are in position to deal for lindholm right now. I have a few thoughts... 1) Just in general: I think Yzerman is trying to figure out how to get this team into the playoffs, and he wants to get them in now. That's why he signed/ traded for a boatload of players in both 2022 and 2023. 2) But we're still a fringe playoff team, at best. And maybe not even that. 3) At the top level (organizational), I think Yzerman wants not just to get this team into the playoffs, but to create a sustainable, year-after-year, high-level playoff team (with chances to get into the Stanley Cup). I mean... obviously. 4) So #3 is the one I am really keying on... not just the sustainability, but at the highest level. The Wings will have to - MUST - rely on Yzerman and their scouts to continuously unearth drafted gems in order to keep a pipeline full, to sustain any kind of competitive team. I think that's a minimum. One of the keys, that Yzerman himself pointed out, was that the Wings cannot just rely on 1st or 2nd rounders drafted, but that they have to have the ability to find "gems" later in the draft. I don't see that, yet. Soderblom? Big and slow, but also agile in short spaces and top-notch stick-handling/ puck-control/ scoring ability... but still very iffy as an NHL'er. A liability on defense. Carter Mazur? A scrappy guy... not in the NHL yet and I don't know what we get with him. A scorer? Middle 6? Bottom 6? Nothing but a depth guy? Or more than that? Lombardi? Fast, but small. Better than Berggren? Or, not really? So... we have a lot of 1st or 2nd rounders on their way up... Not all of them will make it. We have excess in an area or two, but nothing concrete yet. Some guys are further away, and might make an impact (Pellikka, Danielson, Augustine), but noone is on the doorstep showing they'll make a huge impact, except maybe Edvinsson. 5) So I'm thinking... how is Yzerman going to create a high level playoff type team? He's not going to rest until he accomplishes that... right? And... I think he's going to want a mix of high-end vets to both get us there, AND to show the new rookies added to the team each year how to get it done right. I'm just guessing here... 6) So... on Kane: I mean, I love that he dominates the puck, and is showing that to the current team. A vet leader for this Wings team. I agree with buddha that I sign him for 2 more years at around $5mill total ($2.5mill AAV) and be done with it. The only thing that throws me off (not the only thing... he's 35 and had his hip resurfaced... I don't see longevity here...), is Vegas with "intense" interest, per the rumor mill. What does "intense" mean? A 1st rounder? That's way too much for Kane, and it would be at the end of the 1st in the late 20's, at best... But should Yzerman say no to a "king's ransom" or huge overpay if offered by Vegas (or anyone else)? 7) I actually want a different type player than Kane. Not the excellent puck control... we SORELY need that. But I'm looking for the big, tough, high-end two-way players that are ferocious on defense AND offer significant offense. It's why I have an interest in high end players like Hanifan and Lindholm. I would pay the trade cost to get them, AND pay them a going-rate contract. I think they add more to this team, and get us not only into the playoffs but at a higher level, than the Patrick Kane's of the world. And if Yzerman can somehow talk a team into more players and less high draft picks, if that's even possible... I am all for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 3 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I have a few thoughts... 1) Just in general: I think Yzerman is trying to figure out how to get this team into the playoffs, and he wants to get them in now. That's why he signed/ traded for a boatload of players in both 2022 and 2023. 2) But we're still a fringe playoff team, at best. And maybe not even that. 3) At the top level (organizational), I think Yzerman wants not just to get this team into the playoffs, but to create a sustainable, year-after-year, high-level playoff team (with chances to get into the Stanley Cup). I mean... obviously. 4) So #3 is the one I am really keying on... not just the sustainability, but at the highest level. The Wings will have to - MUST - rely on Yzerman and their scouts to continuously unearth drafted gems in order to keep a pipeline full, to sustain any kind of competitive team. I think that's a minimum. One of the keys, that Yzerman himself pointed out, was that the Wings cannot just rely on 1st or 2nd rounders drafted, but that they have to have the ability to find "gems" later in the draft. I don't see that, yet. Soderblom? Big and slow, but also agile in short spaces and top-notch stick-handling/ puck-control/ scoring ability... but still very iffy as an NHL'er. A liability on defense. Carter Mazur? A scrappy guy... not in the NHL yet and I don't know what we get with him. A scorer? Middle 6? Bottom 6? Nothing but a depth guy? Or more than that? Lombardi? Fast, but small. Better than Berggren? Or, not really? So... we have a lot of 1st or 2nd rounders on their way up... Not all of them will make it. We have excess in an area or two, but nothing concrete yet. Some guys are further away, and might make an impact (Pellikka, Danielson, Augustine), but noone is on the doorstep showing they'll make a huge impact, except maybe Edvinsson. 5) So I'm thinking... how is Yzerman going to create a high level playoff type team? He's not going to rest until he accomplishes that... right? And... I think he's going to want a mix of high-end vets to both get us there, AND to show the new rookies added to the team each year how to get it done right. I'm just guessing here... 6) So... on Kane: I mean, I love that he dominates the puck, and is showing that to the current team. A vet leader for this Wings team. I agree with buddha that I sign him for 2 more years at around $5mill total ($2.5mill AAV) and be done with it. The only thing that throws me off (not the only thing... he's 35 and had his hip resurfaced... I don't see longevity here...), is Vegas with "intense" interest, per the rumor mill. What does "intense" mean? A 1st rounder? That's way too much for Kane, and it would be at the end of the 1st in the late 20's, at best... But should Yzerman say no to a "king's ransom" or huge overpay if offered by Vegas (or anyone else)? 7) I actually want a different type player than Kane. Not the excellent puck control... we SORELY need that. But I'm looking for the big, tough, high-end two-way players that are ferocious on defense AND offer significant offense. It's why I have an interest in high end players like Hanifan and Lindholm. I would pay the trade cost to get them, AND pay them a going-rate contract. I think they add more to this team, and get us not only into the playoffs but at a higher level, than the Patrick Kane's of the world. And if Yzerman can somehow talk a team into more players and less high draft picks, if that's even possible... I am all for that. i would definitely trade sebastian cossa for either of those players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 13 minutes ago, buddha said: i would definitely trade sebastian cossa for either of those players. The only thing that would hold me back on Cossa is we still need a #1 goalie. Is that Cossa? Maybe/ maybe not. I have no clue. And I don't know what the Org "really" thinks about him. Maybe they're ready to trade off Husso (probably zero interest in him though with performance & contract...) Or... maybe Yzerman is perfectly fine with trading Cossa for one of these guys and signing Augustine and throwing him to Grand Rapids for a short while before bringing him up to the Wings... I don't know the answers to any of that. But... if Yzerman trades Cossa... I guess I just "Trust in the Yzerplan". If it happens... it happens. But we need a #1 goalie. And we need a couple bigger, tougher, two-way players (1 each for offense & defense, at least, IMO. Maybe 1 offense and TWO defenseman the way our defense currently looks...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 PS: If Yzerman could hold onto Edvinsson and get a Hanifan... We have a crapload of LH'ed defenseman to trade (both NHL'ers and prospects): Maatta, Gostisbehere, Chiarot, Albert Johansson, Wallinder, etc... PLEASE someone have an interest in a couple of these guys as part of a package... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 I go back to what I've always believed about team building - which is that you generally cannot build team value by trade, because except in the rare instance of having an incompetent GM across the table, you will have to give up to get. The value of trading come when you have already developed value you can't use because of position overload. At that point trading can make you better, but much like the Tigers, the Wings are not in that position yet. So what a GM can control comes down to smart drafting, good contract management (i.e. no overpays), and strong instructional coaching that increases player value. I wonder about the last one with the Wings. A lot of players seem to have their careers die in GR. Obviously it's probably just guys hitting their ceilings, but it would be nice to see few more guys get there and accelerate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said: .... The value of trading come when you have already developed value you can't use because of position overload. At that point trading can make you better, but... Two highly regarded goalie prospects: Augustine and Cossa. And we have two current NHL goalies at different levels of reliability... Lots of LH'ed defenseman both NHL'ers and highly regarded prospects: Chiarot Gostisbehere Maatta Walman Edvinsson Albert Johansson William Wallinder Maybe even Shai Buium or Larry Keenan if another team were interested (highly debatable, but still...) If we were to trade for a #2 Center (Lindholm, just as an example): How many #2 Centers do we have, aside from the traded for guy (and Larkin at #1) Compher? Copp? Kasper? Danielson? That would make (5) #2 Centers now, or shortly in the future... Seriously? Yzerman has NOTHING that he can trade with? (And sometimes a vet is needed to be included to match up salaries... etc..). I'm sorry, but I disagree. Yzerman is in a position NOW... IMO... to start making team building moves that put this team at a much higher level. I DO think he would have to be careful, because to your point, an overpay in prospects/ picks could be as much of a setback as a step forward, organizationally... But I believe Yzerman has the ammunition to consider strong team-building moves... if he so chooses. One guy coming in and a couple going out are fine by me... And I think Yzerman has enough to work with... Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I go back to what I've always believed about team building - which is that you generally cannot build team value by trade, because ... PS: The flipside is that: If you let too many young guys fester in the minors because of an unwillingness to make trades... their value deteriorates. You can lose organizational value by just... sitting on prospects. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 48 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: The only thing that would hold me back on Cossa is we still need a #1 goalie. Is that Cossa? Maybe/ maybe not. I have no clue. And I don't know what the Org "really" thinks about him. Maybe they're ready to trade off Husso (probably zero interest in him though with performance & contract...) Or... maybe Yzerman is perfectly fine with trading Cossa for one of these guys and signing Augustine and throwing him to Grand Rapids for a short while before bringing him up to the Wings... I don't know the answers to any of that. But... if Yzerman trades Cossa... I guess I just "Trust in the Yzerplan". If it happens... it happens. But we need a #1 goalie. And we need a couple bigger, tougher, two-way players (1 each for offense & defense, at least, IMO. Maybe 1 offense and TWO defenseman the way our defense currently looks...) alex lyon is playing like a #1 goalie in detroit and we got him off the scrap heap for next to nothing. sebastian cossa is not playing like a #1 goalie in the AHL and we traded up in the first round to get him. trey augustine is playing like a #1 goalie at the world juniors and at msu and we got him in the secomd round. i remain unconvinced that cossa will live up to his hype. i do hold out hope that he will develop later because he is so big. his ceiling remains high. my head tells me we should trade him if we can get a good return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 i wouldnt trade any good prospects or their first rounder this year for any rentals at the trade deadline. they are not one player away this year. this current squad has enough to make the playoffs this year without a big move. if i can move a second round pick and a marginal prospect for lindholm? sure. but calgary is likely to have better offers than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 a sneaky move would be to deal gotishbeare for a first and then promote edvinnson. lets get crazy and deal ghost and perron for picks then use the picks to get lindholm and then promote edvinsson! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 16 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Two highly regarded goalie prospects: Augustine and Cossa. And we have two current NHL goalies at different levels of reliability... Lots of LH'ed defenseman both NHL'ers and highly regarded prospects: Chiarot Gostisbehere Maatta Walman Edvinsson Albert Johansson William Wallinder Maybe even Shai Buium or Larry Keenan if another team were interested (highly debatable, but still...) If we were to trade for a #2 Center (Lindholm, just as an example): How many #2 Centers do we have, aside from the traded for guy (and Larkin at #1) Compher? Copp? Kasper? Danielson? That would make (5) #2 Centers now, or shortly in the future... Seriously? Yzerman has NOTHING that he can trade with? He doesn't have the chips that would bring the kind of players that get his team to the next level. I'm talking about a player someone else actually wants badly enough to give something good up. Danielson or Pellika have value but I don't see Yzerman trading either. Edvinsson is the only name there and he isn't really being blocked by talent, rather by a front office not doing the obvious (calling him up already) for reasons that are not. Walman and Gostibehere don't count because they aren't excess -- the team is still woefully short of competent Dmen. if you move them you just create worse holes to fill, which goes back to Edvinsson. But I don't want to trade a decent Dman to bring Edvinsson up. I don't think that gets you anywhere. To improve you need to bring Edvinsson up and dump one of the bottom Dmen but they have no trade value - so there we are. If some of the guys on the way up do more to prove themselves, then they will have something. IOW, draft well and it eventually takes care of most things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) 28 minutes ago, buddha said: a sneaky move would be to deal gotishbeare for a first and then promote edvinnson. lets get crazy and deal ghost and perron for picks then use the picks to get lindholm and then promote edvinsson! I don't know if it's good strategy or not, but I think you are correct about the 1st part. I think Yzerman is always willing to pick up high picks because I believe he believes he can out scout other teams and make those picks more valuable. But for the same reason, whether he would then deal high picks is a little more questionable. He'd rather collect then move lower picks in trade. I think if you listen to Yzerman - he understands that it's really hard to get top players by any means, so I think he basically has a two track build strategy - do all the incremental things you can, draft as well as you can, and try to maximize high 1st round picks where you have a shot at a star. I could definitely see him trading a player he thinks he can replace for a 1st if he could swing it. Edited January 27 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 all the above said, I do expect Yzerman to make significant deals before the deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 51 minutes ago, buddha said: a sneaky move would be to deal gotishbeare for a first and then promote edvinnson. lets get crazy and deal ghost and perron for picks then use the picks to get lindholm and then promote edvinsson! I'm on board. I think we could throw Chiarot in there too, and maybe even Kane. I think I mentioned earlier I'd like Yzerman to be both a seller AND a buyer this deadline... I'd like him to buy a couple higher end players... if that's possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 37 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: ... Walman and Gostibehere don't count because they aren't excess -- the team is still woefully short of competent Dmen. if you move them you just create worse holes to fill... If you trade a D'man for a D'man (Ghost for Hanifan, just as an example); how has a hole been created? Promoting Edvinsson is a separate issue, IMO. Although that makes 1 of Chiarot or Matta expendable (Hanifan becomes #1 with Seider, plus Edvinsson as a #3 with Walman #2, or the other way around? Plus Ghost, plus... so how many LH'ed defenseman do we need on the Wings BTW...?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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