1984Echoes Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 I'm with Sports Freak... He gets at least 3+ years to enact his vision so we can see what he's capable of... so in my mind... That's still 2+ years before I even begin any kind of earnest evaluation. And so far, early returns, in my mind, are highly promising. Organizationally, as well as player acquisition... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 3 hours ago, kdog said: Canha is a nice 35 year old hitter. But he was supposed to complement a team with emerging young hitters. He isn't a guy you are keeping around beyond another year. It still comes down to the development of the young 'core' hitters on the current roster. True, although while a team is waiting for the young core hitters to mature in the coming years, they still have to put good hitters in the lineup this year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 I don't think it should take five years from now, or even from August 2022, for us to finally become competitive. My original thought was that if we are not competing for a playoff spot, if not Central title, by 2025, something is going wrong, and I will stick with that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 20 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Is calling for Harris's head a thing on Twitter? I didn't know that... (I don't use twitter so I wouldn't...) It depends on who you follow. I don't follow many people like that but sometimes they show up in the reponses to those I do follow. Hinch too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) If somebody is calling for Hinch or Harris's head, that's likely an instant unfollow/mute/block for me. My timeline is much more clean these days. It's healthy to seek out opposing views sometimes, but the passive nature of social media scrolling means it is important to prune, IMO. Edited May 9 by Edman85 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 Tarik Skubal is on this week’s Have a Seat podcast with Dickerson. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 2 hours ago, alex said: On my thinking, by no means 'fire' the guy. However, I am very curious if he can/has the ability to make a deal or two here during the next say 18 months to acquire 1-2 quality hitter(s). A value for value deal and/or simply something that is more risky. If he cannot do that, than he is NOT the right person for the job. IMHO, its that simple. In order to get quality in return, you need to give up quality. Do you want to trade Riley, Skubal or Jobe? We're not going to get a quality player for much less. I'm not even thinking about the needed salary for this quality bat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 1 hour ago, Edman85 said: If somebody is calling for Hinch or Harris's head, that's likely an instant unfollow/mute/block for me. My timeline is much more clean these days. It's healthy to seek out opposing views sometimes, but the passive nature of social media scrolling means it is important to prune, IMO. So true.....haters get blocked. Who really needs that negativity? I'm probably as impatient as anyone but even I know it takes time. Some of Avila's draft picks are just coming into the picture. It takes a while in baseball...at least 3 years IF there's talent to start. The Tigers are close, no reason to mortgage the future for a hitter right now who won't get us over the top anyway. With Max Clark and Jung maybe coming up in the next couple of years, we may be able to build something that will last for several years. I would rather develop our own talent and pay them than bring in some expensive 2 or 3 year rental just to win a few extra games this and next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: So true.....haters get blocked. Who really needs that negativity? I'm probably as impatient as anyone but even I know it takes time. Some of Avila's draft picks are just coming into the picture. It takes a while in baseball...at least 3 years IF there's talent to start. The Tigers are close, no reason to mortgage the future for a hitter right now who won't get us over the top anyway. With Max Clark and Jung maybe coming up in the next couple of years, we may be able to build something that will last for several years. I would rather develop our own talent and pay them than bring in some expensive 2 or 3 year rental just to win a few extra games this and next season. To me, it's less haters. It's more, I am trying to avoid passively consuming misinformation. It's honestly why I unfollowed a lot of Tigers prospect twitter, because if you just follow those people, a few years ago you would think Brock Deatherage would have 100 career MLB homers by now. I'd go so far to say the flowery types are even more of a niusance. Edited May 9 by Edman85 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 1 hour ago, 1776 said: Tarik Skubal is on this week’s Have a Seat podcast with Dickerson. Really enjoyed this one as well as AJ and I look forward to Jake's interview if he's next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 5 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: There's people calling for his head after just 1 1/2 years? One draft? Get back to me in 3 more years. We can't be firing our GM every two years. And I thought I was impatient... There probably are a few people calling for Harris’ head, but are they worth listening to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) 4 hours ago, chasfh said: I don't think it should take five years from now, or even from August 2022, for us to finally become competitive. My original thought was that if we are not competing for a playoff spot, if not Central title, by 2025, something is going wrong, and I will stick with that. I think this sounds reasonable. But besides the shorter term merits of the major league team, Harris also needs to get the minor leagues in order. It sounds like that is being done. Now, perhaps the earliest fruit from those improvements can be a part of next season’s MLB team, but that might be pushing it. Edited May 9 by casimir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: no reason to mortgage the future for a hitter right now who won't get us over the top anyway. The best deals for a team like the Tigers do not give up young for old, they are the ones where you have done your homework on up and comers around the high minors or green rookies that haven't proven anything, like Austin Jackson and Max Scherzer. But of course deals like that kill your roster value if the guys you bring don't pan out. So really - it's the same as it ever was - if you can evaluate talent - especially that others miss, you can build a winner. Or you grow your own, or you can spend $250M on payroll. That's really all there is available to management. I think there is a lot of magic thinking that the right GM can just wheel and deal his team into contention. Well, he can try, but in most cases what looks like short term success is burning a system's future seed corn, the way Dombrowski burned ours. Edited May 9 by gehringer_2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 1 hour ago, casimir said: I think this sounds reasonable. But besides the shorter term merits of the major league team, Harris also needs to get the minor leagues in order. It sounds like that is being done. Now, perhaps the earliest fruit from those improvements can be a part of next season’s MLB team, but that might be pushing it. I would say Jung, Jobe and Clark are the future. Jobe is probably the closest but the amount of pitchers getting hurt is concerning. But again, they may struggle at the ML level so we will need to...evaluate once they get here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holygoat Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 7 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: There's people calling for his head after just 1 1/2 years? One draft? Get back to me in 3 more years. We can't be firing our GM every two years. And I thought I was impatient... I don't know that anyone here has called for Harris's head. Saying he should be on the hot seat, yes, but that he needs to go now, no. For me, if the hitting continues to suck like this through June and Harris doesn't make any moves, I'll be pissed. If he doesn't make any major off-season moves and the offense continues to suck into next season, then I'll probably consider him ripe for the chopping block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 35 minutes ago, holygoat said: I don't know that anyone here has called for Harris's head. Saying he should be on the hot seat, yes, but that he needs to go now, no. For me, if the hitting continues to suck like this through June and Harris doesn't make any moves, I'll be pissed. If he doesn't make any major off-season moves and the offense continues to suck into next season, then I'll probably consider him ripe for the chopping block. I was underwhelmed with his last off-season moves. But I most definitely do not want him to trade any of our young prospects. Especially for a player who may just leave in a year or two anyway. This Tiger team is in need of more than just a player or two. We have to have patience and let the chips fall where they may. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 32 minutes ago, holygoat said: I don't know that anyone here has called for Harris's head. Saying he should be on the hot seat, yes, but that he needs to go now, no. For me, if the hitting continues to suck like this through June and Harris doesn't make any moves, I'll be pissed. If he doesn't make any major off-season moves and the offense continues to suck into next season, then I'll probably consider him ripe for the chopping block. It's frustrating that Miggy was used as an excuse and an acceptance of below replacement play. Now Javy has taken that role. For more than a month, it has now included Tork, Keith, Meadows and others. Meadows and the others actually have defensive value to make up for their shortcomings on offense. Tork, Baez and Keith all have negative WAR on Fangraphs and have been some of the worst players in baseball. They have guys at Toledo with ML experience and Tork and Keith have options. I think Harris should do something. In spring training, players were supposed to "earn" their jobs and Manning paid the price for that. Baddoo paid the price too. Almost six weeks later Baez, Tork and Keith haven't earned anything. That's a slap in the face to the guys who are performing IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Harris has and had no say in Miggy being here last year and Javy being here this year and next. He’s not in a position to cut them. Not yet at least. This year was always a transition. I know it frustrates fans after the previous 6-7 years but that’s not the fault of Scott Harris. He’s cleaning up and evaluating what’s left I’m grateful I get to watch a team that will probably be in a position to win each game. As for trades…. Nobody wants our ****. Why do fans think there’s value in crappy players? The logic of “this team and org stinks. They should make some trades”. If they could make the trades… they wouldn’t have to make them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 56 minutes ago, holygoat said: I don't know that anyone here has called for Harris's head. Saying he should be on the hot seat, yes, but that he needs to go now, no. For me, if the hitting continues to suck like this through June and Harris doesn't make any moves, I'll be pissed. If he doesn't make any major off-season moves and the offense continues to suck into next season, then I'll probably consider him ripe for the chopping block. I don’t even think Harris should be on the hot seat. After less than two years of being able to do little more than clean out the rot in the system, and he should be on the hot seat for not having us in a position to contend for a ring? That seems harsh. I would not expect our offense to improve until he can get the players in the system that are actually capable of providing good big-league-level offense, and that’s gonna take more than another year. Although I do expect to have at least a couple more positive contributors on the team next year, whether via trade, FA signing, promotion, or working a miracle on one of Avila’s leftovers. And if Wenceel keeps it up into next year, I will count him as one, because I think it’s premature to consider him a surefire All-Star hitter already. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 20 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: It's frustrating that Miggy was used as an excuse and an acceptance of below replacement play. Now Javy has taken that role. For more than a month, it has now included Tork, Keith, Meadows and others. Meadows and the others actually have defensive value to make up for their shortcomings on offense. Tork, Baez and Keith all have negative WAR on Fangraphs and have been some of the worst players in baseball. If Torkelson doesn't straighten out, it's easy enough to put somebody - probably Canha, at 1B. But catcher and SS are going to be hard to fix. We have guys we can put at SS, but none that probably won't cost us runs there, and Dingler is only managing 230 against AAA pitching so that's not very promising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 (edited) Baez started the season poorly and has only gotten worse. 524 OPS in April, 456 in his last 55 PA and 178 (!) so far in May. He has a good chance of hitting under 150 over his 1st 150 PA. At this point it would be a breakthrough just to get last years Baez back - as bad as it seemed then Looking at BR, Urshella has played about as many MLB games at short as McKinstry - neither has a good defensive rating in what is too small a sample to mean much for either of them. They would at least be a R/L platoon pair if you bench Javy. Edited May 10 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holygoat Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 1 hour ago, chasfh said: I don’t even think Harris should be on the hot seat. After less than two years of being able to do little more than clean out the rot in the system, and he should be on the hot seat for not having us in a position to contend for a ring? Who said "compete for a ring?" Not the guy you're quoting. Making moves to improve a bottom-tier offense is not a huge ask, IMO, but maybe it is for you. YMMV. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 12 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: The best deals for a team like the Tigers do not give up young for old, they are the ones where you have done your homework on up and comers around the high minors or green rookies that haven't proven anything, like Austin Jackson and Max Scherzer. But of course deals like that kill your roster value if the guys you bring don't pan out. So really - it's the same as it ever was - if you can evaluate talent - especially that others miss, you can build a winner. Or you grow your own, or you can spend $250M on payroll. That's really all there is available to management. I think there is a lot of magic thinking that the right GM can just wheel and deal his team into contention. Well, he can try, but in most cases what looks like short term success is burning a system's future seed corn, the way Dombrowski burned ours. IMHO, a good team, and to be sustainable, should be able to do three things: 1) It HAS to be able to draft (scouting mostly) then develop (player development) some good everyday MLB players. That means pitchers and position players. The Tigers should be getting better at this. They have updated everywhere and again, SHarris has inherited some potential players as well. 2) To be able to sign some FA players. This is on ownership as well. Yet, the ability to make a deal has to be with-in the CEO/GMs ability also. 3) Every successful CEO/GM has to have some ability to negotiate some good trades. You do not always have to give up your best young talent to get talent in return for a position of need. We have 'some' P depth. Other teams have needs as well. It is the scouting departments job to identify potential targets - but then the GM has to be able to 'negotiate the deal' - this and the FA depart both need this ability to some extent. This is where I am questioning can this front office can do it. They do not have to wait two years from now to better the team with a trade, because right now we are 'not in the race'. BS, a good GM can get a deal done at anytime. I just feel SHarris is over doing the 'versatile middle INF approach who works the count' - with most of his positional player aquisitions. You have to have HR power to win games in this league. To drive the ball and drive in runs. We are lacking in that department (get it together Tork!). Sure the player needs to be able to play a position and do other things, but so far the players obtained by SHarris, to me, are more the 'fringe' types you find on a roster: JRizzo, BKennedy, NSolak, SMcKinstry, NMaton, AIbanez, YLee, etc. (also the 2nd & 3rd picks in last years draft), heck even GUrshela. Again, my question is not the scouting dept., player development, facility and tech etc., all have upgrades. It is - is SHarris (and the GM) the guy(s) who can identify and negotiate a deal for potential 'good everyday players' via FA and trade - and we should not have to wait years to find this out. A good trade can be made at anytime. IMHO, the Tigers could contend this year for the Central (doing so in September is a step forward) - If the P stays relatively healthy. So, why wait if opportunity presents itself? No, you do not have to always give up the 2-3 so called valued future franchise types either. Many good trades have been made through history to prove this. Many teams often look to unload players... Can our FO identify and negotiate this these type of deal(s)? If not, 2, 3 or 5 years time is NOT going to matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Regarding a "good trade"... who do you propose moving that would bring back good players? Other GM's want to make good trades too so they won't give up quality for crap. The Tigers don't have a lot of quality to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 3 minutes ago, oblong said: Regarding a "good trade"... who do you propose moving that would bring back good players? Other GM's want to make good trades too so they won't give up quality for crap. The Tigers don't have a lot of quality to move. Of course that is a good question. My point is many good GMS negotiate some good deals (ex DD). IF not, they no longer keep the position and rarely are rehired by another organization (ex AA - yet, he had 'some' other stronger areas, one was NOT surrounding himself with 'several' good baseball people). Who? heck, who to deal away and get in return is very subjective. Different organizations value players differently. We do have some talent. Our system is NOT a bottom five anymore. Many pundits rank it mostly in the upper half. We make a list, identify whom we have interest, approach the team (and this also may already be working in reverse, it is very subjective and two sided). Then see what fits (objectively) on both ends with 'several' organizations. Many teams do this. Tampa does it with a lot of success. So does Atlanta, etc. Yet, on the other end the Orioles are very stingy. Most teams are in the middle. IMHO, sooner or later, as I have said, today to 2-5 years from now, etc. Our FO will have to put together a trade or two that appears to work for both sides (again, someone may be doing this in reverse as well). Can our FO guys do this? That is what I question. This does not take years. A good GM/negotiator simply has the ability to do this and it can be any time. Again, scouting and player development is always first and foremost. Yet, some of this development 'could' be used to trade for needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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