Will Tigers Pony up for Skubal

[Sports_Freak]

10 minutes ago, casimir said:

My point still stands.  I wouldn’t consider might be major leaguers as untouchable.  Might be hall of fame players are untouchable, and even then they could be acquired under certain circumstances.

Well, from what I gathered, the players you mentioned weren't as highly rated as several of our prospects. Sweeney and Malloy weren't even Tigers draft picks. Jung may have been, I don't care enough to look it up. But the Tigers have a few of the top prospects in all of baseball. Those other guys were only near the top in their former organization.

Young, team controlled talent is the way to build a successful organization these days. Older, established players are just too expensive. And trading away top prospects for rentals is wrong. In hindsight, Harris woulda been better off not picking up Paddack and Morton. Using bullpen days probably would have had better results. And it really should have been something he should have seen or known. One guy was washed up a few years ago and the other was a reject from a bottom feeding team.

[buddha]

17 minutes ago, casimir said:

Great.  So what’s the tie that binds to the Ilitches?  Father and son?

i assume that's why he does it.

again and again and again.

[tiger2022]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

But in a defense of Harris, what teams or players did he try to acquire? And which of our prospects were other teams seeking? I heard somebody say teams wanted Melton. No way would i have been happy trading him, we need all the pitching we can get. And his future looks bright. There's also 3 or 4 untouchable prospects who <may> turn into solid major leaguers who i would say are untouchables. If he just could have traded some of our lesser prospects for real pitching or hitting help, it may have gotten us to the ALCS or even the World Series. I guess we'll never know what really transpired.

I have no idea what he tried to do.  There are online rumors, which I take with a grain of salt as to what he tried to do or who he offered in return for whatever players that were out there.  The fact is he brought in two atrocious pitchers that lost games after game.  He didn't accomplish anything to help the team win other than sit back and hope everything worked out for the best.  

Is it the best strategy?  I have no idea but it didn't work out.  

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, casimir said:

I have no idea what it means or why it’s lasted this long.

Haiti - the unspeakably corrupt hereditary dictatorship of Francios (PapaDoc) and Jean-Claude (babyDoc) Duvalier

Edited Sunday at 01:05 AM by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

They weren't Harris draft picks. 😁

It's not unusual for a new team GM (or POBO) to come in and clean house of all players and coaches from the previous regime. Harris should be given some credit for recognizing the talent already here and allowing AJ to use those players and get the most out of them.

We better hope that isn't true of Harris. Any GM that evaluates talent based on whether it has his name on it is an egotistical fool and is going to be a loser as a result.

Edited Sunday at 01:15 AM by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

5 hours ago, oblong said:

I don’t think anything in this org happens in a silo.  It’s an integrated process and strategy between the front office and the manager and coaches, and the development staff. 

The fact that a GM and a coaching staff sit down and try to figure how to survive the wreckage and limp home after moving a bunch of pitching just isn't grounds in my book for giving that GM credit for his players exceeding every reasonable and unreasonable expectation. It's like saying the Doc that put a bandaid on a patient gets credit for a subsequent spontaneous cancer remission.  

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

We better hope that isn't true of Harris. Any GM that evaluates talent based on whether it has his name on it is an egotistical fool and is going to be a loser as a result.

He hasn't done that.

And I don't expect him to.

But I DO expect him to evaluate all players on the team, in Detroit and throughout the Org, regardless whether he pulled them into the Org or Avila did... on his OWN set of expected parameters.

If he expects his top 5 players to average a .340 OBP or better, and have some HR pop (they don't have to be 50 HR guys in my mind, especially in Comerica) but more line-drive pop (lots of doubles & triples...) then I expect him to populate the top of the order, and to search for, these types of players. He wants hitters that "command the strike zone", and pitchers.

I've also seen from most of his draftees that he is searching for and values fielding capability. Not everyone, he traded for Sweeney and JHM and drafted Anderson. But his top draftees seem to all have that ability.

So... Maybe Tork sticks. Or doesn't. Same with Greene. Same with Keith. Same with Dingler.

I expect those players to... meet Harris's expectations. He very well may keep them if they do. Or at least if they come damn close to what he expects. I expect Hinch and he will have lots of conversations on whether each of these guys can step it up... or not.

And if they don't meet his expectations, and he does move on from them... it ain't because they are attached to Avila. It's because they proved themselves not good enough and he found someone better.

Or at least I hope that's how it goes.

 

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 03:00 AM by 1984Echoes

[1984Echoes]

5 hours ago, oblong said:

... And you just pulled those numbers out of your ass. 

Excuse me?

Which numbers did I pull out of my ass?

There were no formulas in my post.

Are you talking about my WAG?

My WILD ASS GUESS?

Do you not know what a WAG is?

Because yes, I feel you are being very rude to me in your post.

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

We better hope that isn't true of Harris. Any GM that evaluates talent based on whether it has his name on it is an egotistical fool and is going to be a loser as a result.

Its usually the manager who gets fired by a new GM, sometimes. I like to think if Avila would have been fired sooner, a new GM woulda told Brad to take a hike. 😆😆

[chasfh]

15 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Teams that have players that are going to walk at the end of the season. Most rental players don't fetch top overall prospects.

Do you have a particular trade in mind that could have filled this bill, or is trading lesser prospects for solid major leaguers more a whiteboard strategy?

[casimir]

12 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

The fact that a GM and a coaching staff sit down and try to figure how to survive the wreckage and limp home after moving a bunch of pitching just isn't grounds in my book for giving that GM credit for his players exceeding every reasonable and unreasonable expectation. It's like saying the Doc that put a bandaid on a patient gets credit for a subsequent spontaneous cancer remission.  

Wait, was it papa Doc or baby Doc with the bandaid?

[casimir]

15 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Young, team controlled talent is the way to build a successful organization these days. Older, established players are just too expensive. And trading away top prospects for rentals is wrong. In hindsight, Harris woulda been better off not picking up Paddack and Morton. Using bullpen days probably would have had better results. And it really should have been something he should have seen or known. One guy was washed up a few years ago and the other was a reject from a bottom feeding team.

Except that the bullpen wasn't all that good, so.....

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

Except that the bullpen wasn't all that good, so.....

True...very true. And we'll never know what may have happened, only what did happen. And I know it's hindsight but career baseball executives should have known the possible downside of bringing in the 2 pitchers they did. I dont need to repeat the negatives about those pitchers, the results speak for themselves.

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

Do you have a particular trade in mind that could have filled this bill, or is trading lesser prospects for solid major leaguers more a whiteboard strategy?

I'm not a baseball GM. I have no idea which players were available or what other teams were asking. A RH hitting 3rd baseman or a quality SP would have made a huge difference. We finished one game out of winning our division and one single run in extra innings from going to the ALCS. Even if a hlitter or pitcher failed to help us, at least it would have been a valid attempt to improve our team. Instead, with the 2 pitchers Harris brought in, it weakened our team. And I'll repeat, it was totally predictable.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

Except that the bullpen wasn't all that good, so.....

I wanted them to acquire a couple of relievers at the deadline.  Finnegan was a good acquistion.  Perhaps Jansen was available and I doubt he would have cost a top prospect.  If he did, then it would have been a bad move.

[SoCalTiger]

The criticism of Harris 2025 trade deadline deals was that he did not trade any of his "non top five" prospects which I guess were Lee, Anderson, Jayden Hamm, Franyearber Montilla , Malloy, Jace Jung and Andrew Sears. But the question nobody asks , and I don't know, is how valuable were they to other teams ? Is it possible nobody wanted them in comparison to what other teams offered ? And how valuable are they today? Maybe Harris was handcuffed with requests for only his top five ? 

Edited Sunday at 05:25 PM by SoCalTiger

[Sports_Freak]

35 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

The criticism of Harris 2025 trade deadline deals was that he did not trade any of his "non top five" prospects which I guess were Lee, Anderson, Jayden Hamm, Franyearber Montilla , Malloy, Jace Jung and Andrew Sears. But the question nobody asks , and I don't know, is how valuable were they to other teams ? Is it possible nobody wanted them in comparison to what other teams offered ? And how valuable are they today? Maybe Harris was handcuffed with requests for only his top five ? 

All we can do is look and compare what players were traded and what for. Its not fair to say...well this pitcher didn't do well or this hitter slumped...there's no way to predict a player going into a slump (Suarez) or a quality pitcher who then struggles for the last 6 weeks. Its players like Morton or Paddack who were easily predictable in their struggles. 

[HeyAbbott]

On 1/3/2026 at 8:51 AM, chasfh said:

I agree that Harris probably didn’t expect this team to be in the playoffs in Year 2 and 3 of his tenure still carrying a high percentage of Avila signs. That puts a lot more pressure on him as he spools out his vision a s planned, and probably forced him to make a signing going into Year 4 that he wouldn’t have expected to, that of a Kenley Jansen to shore up the back of the pen.

I wouldn’t agree with the thing you didn’t say here but has been implied, that failing to sign a Schwarber or a Tucker or a Bichette, or even extending Skubal this winter, would constitute gross dereliction of responsibility by Harris. We may or may not have enough pieces in house right now to make the next move in October. No one here thinks we definitely do, and I myself can’t be sure either way, but Harris is privy to information we don’t have, so until he takes his shot and fails due to provable incompetence, I’m giving him the leeway to prove it.

I would not sign Skubal. It locks in too much risk. We were one bat shy last year, and unless Veirling and the various outfield pieces prove to be healthy, we will likely be a bat shy this year.

[Tenacious D]

1 hour ago, HeyAbbott said:

I would not sign Skubal. It locks in too much risk. We were one bat shy last year, and unless Veirling and the various outfield pieces prove to be healthy, we will likely be a bat shy this year.

One bat?  

[papalawrence]

7 hours ago, HeyAbbott said:

I would not sign Skubal. It locks in too much risk. We were one bat shy last year, and unless Veirling and the various outfield pieces prove to be healthy, we will likely be a bat shy this year.

With potential regression from Javy, McKinstry, Dingler. Maybe Dingler progresses. A lot of unknowns. I think Harris is making moves to try to win, but mostly to preserve the core future, his guys, and they'll start trickling in this season. Post Skubal there may be a drop off, but Harris is looking long term and sustainability under his system

Edited yesterday at 02:34 AM by papalawrence

[Sports_Freak]

On 1/3/2026 at 8:51 AM, chasfh said:

  but Harris is privy to information we don’t have, so until he takes his shot and fails due to provable incompetence, I’m giving him the leeway to prove it.

This is exactly my point about Harris acquiring Morton and Paddack at the trade deadline. As fans, we dont have access to the same information as a baseball executive. And yet many folks knew Morton was washed up and Paddack never had success. There's a very good possibility they cost us a division and contributed to a huge collapse. That was a total fail on the part of Harris and I see no way to sugar coat it or make excuses for him. But I'm sure some people may try...

[Tiger337]

On 1/3/2026 at 3:03 PM, oblong said:

It was pretty much immediately after the trade deadline. This isn’t an “after the fact” anecdote where they bragged. It was brought up at that time.  No they didn’t say “we have a plan to make the playoffs”.  I didn’t infer that. I brought it up because it was said that all the credit for that run goes to Hinch and the coaches, and not Harris, and I strenuously dispute that. I don’t think anything in this org happens in a silo.  It’s an integrated process and strategy between the front office and the manager and coaches, and the development staff. 

What else were they going to do though?  They had injuries and then Harris traded two of their best remaining pitchers at the deadline (and I don't blame Harris for that).  They had no choice but to go to bullpen games.  The genius was not in the plan but how it was executed.  I have to give most of the credit to day to day management and to the pitchers.  

[oblong]

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

What else were they going to do though?  They had injuries and then Harris traded two of their best remaining pitchers at the deadline (and I don't blame Harris for that).  They had no choice but to go to bullpen games.  The genius was not in the plan but how it was executed.  I have to give most of the credit to day to day management and to the pitchers.  

I assume the plan was executed based on data and processes that the FO is responsible for, along with the coaches. It wasn't just random selection of pitchers.

 

[Tiger337]

21 minutes ago, oblong said:

I assume the plan was executed based on data and processes that the FO is responsible for, along with the coaches. It wasn't just random selection of pitchers.

 

To an extent, that's probably true, but I think Harris's effect is pretty limited.  Hinch/Fetter were quite good at managing the bullpen even before Harris came aboard.  

[Tiger337]

On 1/3/2026 at 9:13 AM, chasfh said:

I agree, several other posters do share that view. Numerous other posters have raked Harris for failing to sign the very biggest of free agents, or to successfully trade second-tier prospects for established big league contributors. 

I think every sports forum on the internet has fans that want the GM or manager or both fired.