1984Echoes Posted June 27 Posted June 27 The thing is... I'm looking at Joe as purely a "bench guy". If we were to acquire Powell... I would think he'd be a starter, not a bench guy. I'm not going to compare Joe to Duncan or Powell... I'm going to compare him to Sasser and LeVert. Is Joe better than Sasser and/or LeVert? Quote
Deleterious Posted June 27 Author Posted June 27 One bright spot. Joe has a team option next year so they can dump him next summer. Quote
Betrayer Posted June 27 Posted June 27 27 minutes ago, Deleterious said: 98th percentile is amazing, not going to lie. Except, he ran PnR ball handler 0.2 times per game. He made a shot from running an PnR ball handler play 0.1 times per game. Yep, he runs the PnRBH play once every 5 games. He makes a basket from it every 10 games or 8 times a year. 1.24 points per possession at that rate equals about 20 points per season for him as the PnR ball handler. Not a Herro fan either. Much more receptive to Powell for sure, but not a huge deal to me if they don't go get him. But the one thing you don't mention. Those two can both be handed the ball and go get a shot for you. Joe never will. Herro sucks on defense and I think Powell is a bit overrated there. But he is better than Joe on defense. And Powell is a career 39% three point shooter, so you lose almost nothing there with him compared to Joe. You do have some injury concerns with Powell. But if you could get him at $20 million per, much better option than Joe for the playoffs. We should bookmark this for April when we're both yelling at our TV's how terrible Joe is on defense. Totally agree he didn't run the PnR much. But he has a nice handle and when he does it, he does it well. On a team like OKC, they didn't need ask him to do it more. Maybe he will here and maybe there's some untapped potential because the signs are good. He's also a really good pull up and step-back shooter with massive range, truly one of the elite shooters in the game, so it depends on what you mean by "go out and get a bucket." Either way, unless you're talking about superstars who deserve to be ball hogs, iso play isn't a key attribute for me in a player. As for Powell, I think he's being highly overrated. I just don't see why Powell is considered a big move for a "starter". It feels so much more like narrative than reality. You put Isaiah Joe in the same starter role with the same number of opportunities and he's essentially the same player, except 6 years younger, on 1/3 of the contract, and not sitting on the bench injured. I'm out here defending him like he's my favorite player. He's not. However, I do think it's a solid move to add a shooter and I'm happy they decided to go after this need by using a couple of seconds to get 80-90% of those other guys that would have cost you way more in assets+dollars. Now you can spend your assets+dollars on something more important like a PF or some 3 and D. Those things can't be had cheaply while these types of scorers can. Smart move. Quote
Deleterious Posted June 27 Author Posted June 27 Here is all you need to know about Joe. OKC had Williams and Mitchell ahead of him in the guard rotation. Both missed a good portion of the conference finals. OKC did not play Joe. Game 7 with both of those guys out. DNP-CD for Joe. Like the Tweet said a few posts ago. Unplayable in the playoffs. Quote
Betrayer Posted June 27 Posted June 27 6 hours ago, Deleterious said: Here is all you need to know about Joe. OKC had Williams and Mitchell ahead of him in the guard rotation. Both missed a good portion of the conference finals. OKC did not play Joe. Game 7 with both of those guys out. DNP-CD for Joe. Like the Tweet said a few posts ago. Unplayable in the playoffs. By that logic, Jalen Duren is a great playoff performer since he played so many minutes in the postseason. And apparently so is your favorite player, Tobias Harris. Let's not forget Duncan Robinson. All perfectly suited for the playoffs. After all, they got a ton of minutes, so that must be it! ...or maybe OKC picked up Jared McCain and wanted to bet on him when Joe was struggling with his shot this playoffs (after shooting 41% the previous two playoffs, including the championship season). 1 Quote
Deleterious Posted June 27 Author Posted June 27 3 hours ago, Betrayer said: By that logic, Jalen Duren is a great playoff performer since he played so many minutes in the postseason. And apparently so is your favorite player, Tobias Harris. Let's not forget Duncan Robinson. All perfectly suited for the playoffs. After all, they got a ton of minutes, so that must be it! ...or maybe OKC picked up Jared McCain and wanted to bet on him when Joe was struggling with his shot this playoffs (after shooting 41% the previous two playoffs, including the championship season). Well, no. Because the next step in evaluating a player is to look at the time he was on the court. We have data of Duren, Harris, and Robinson being horrible when on the court. McCain beat him out you say? OK, McCain was -4 in the playoffs this year. A guy who helped his team by sitting on the bench beat out Joe. OK lets look at the year before when McCain wasn't on the team. Joe was sat down in the playoffs again. Let's progress to that next step for Joe, evaluating his on court play when he does get minutes. -17 on/off this year in the playoffs. The year before in the playoffs, on/off of -11. The year before that, on/off of -8. But you dismissed looking at his on court performance when I brought it up. Even though you have used on/off to prove your point many times on this forum. I even included a data point from one of the OKC bloggers, who would be someone like Ku for us, saying Joe is unplayable in the playoffs. The best part of our dumb argument, I haven't said anything that crazy. I admit Joe will be a real nice regular season pickup, but not so much for the playoffs. You have said for a year now we need guys that help win playoff games and guys that can play both ways. Joe doesn't check either of those boxes. Go ahead and reply, but I probably won't respond anymore. I'm already a little embarrassed I wrote this much about Joe. Quote
buddha Posted June 27 Posted June 27 They got a shooter to replace duncan robinson, end of story. numbers dont always tell the whole story, like your impassioned defense of trey murphy's defense when all the "numbers" say he is complete **** on that end of the floor. i'm not saying that's Joe, but it could be (i doubt it). at the end of the day, this doesnt really move the needle for the pistons. if anything, its still incomplete because we dont know what theyre going to do with robinson. if this is the only move that comes out of letting stew walk (getting okurie and joe), then that's a net negative for me. as many have pointed out, its trading your identity for a couple offense only players who will get hunted in the playoffs. hopefully - surely - there are more moves to come. Quote
Deleterious Posted June 27 Author Posted June 27 But it isn't incomplete. While they were not traded directly for each other, they essentially were. Stew is sent out creating the $15 million TPE, Joe is brought in on that TPE. Now they try to fill the PF spot with the MLE, which they had with or without trading Stew. They will have $3-$4 million left on the TPE though. Stew made $15 million and Joe was somewhere between $11 and $12 million. So they could still add someone with that little bit, but that is most likely an end of the bench roster filler type. Quote
Deleterious Posted June 27 Author Posted June 27 He only lists two teams with actual cap space, Chicago and Brooklyn. He has Detroit in Tier 2 - Cap space, but at a cost. NBA free agency 2026: How much all 30 teams can spend this summer Quote Detroit Pistons Projected room: TBD The Pistons have $136 million in salary but will likely stay over the cap because of Jalen Duren's $19.5 million free agent hold. Detroit could create up to $21 million in room but at the expense of renouncing every free agent except for Duren, waiving Duncan Robinson and trading Caris LeVert. The Pistons have an $8.7 million trade exception that expires July 6, and if they remain over the cap, they will add the $15 million non-tax midlevel exception. Detroit will likely use the Isaiah Stewart $15 million trade exception to acquire Isaiah Joe. Team needs: A secondary scorer, shooting and a stretch-4. Free agents who fit: Jalen Duren, Tobias Harris, Javonte Green, Peyton Watson, Anfernee Simons, Keon Ellis, Bruce Brown, Tari Eason, Josh Okogie, John Collins, Rui Hachimura, Harrison Barnes, Dean Wade Key free agents: Jalen Duren (Restricted), Tobias Harris, Daniss Jenkins (Team) Other free agents: Javonte Green, Wendell Moore Jr., Kevin Huerter, Tolu Smith (Team) Quote
buddha Posted June 27 Posted June 27 35 minutes ago, Deleterious said: But it isn't incomplete. While they were not traded directly for each other, they essentially were. Stew is sent out creating the $15 million TPE, Joe is brought in on that TPE. Now they try to fill the PF spot with the MLE, which they had with or without trading Stew. They will have $3-$4 million left on the TPE though. Stew made $15 million and Joe was somewhere between $11 and $12 million. So they could still add someone with that little bit, but that is most likely an end of the bench roster filler type. if the only thing they do is sub out stew and sub in joe/okorie and re-sign duren, then they got worse, imo. 1 Quote
Deleterious Posted June 27 Author Posted June 27 23 minutes ago, buddha said: if the only thing they do is sub out stew and sub in joe/okorie and re-sign duren, then they got worse, imo. My guess is they use the MLE on a PF. Even if Harris comes back (****), he would be about the only serviceable PF on the roster. So they still need one more. But it won't be anyone that great. Maybe a John Collins type. I think they also need another big, a true 7 footer. Duren is small for a center and Reed is even smaller. Maybe they think Smith can handle the 3rd center spot. But I doubt that new kid they picked up in the draft is ready. Anyway, getting the 2nd scorer or a 3 & D type guy was always going to happen through a trade. Those types of guys rarely hit the open market and if they did, Detroit doesn't have the money to sign them anyway. Quote
Deleterious Posted June 27 Author Posted June 27 Detroit has a few decisions to make by June 29th/Monday. They need to offer Wendell Moore a qualifying offer, or he becomes an unrestricted free agent. He is restricted if they offer it. Then they need to decide on the team options for Jenkins and Smith. Jenkins is a lock to be picked up IMO. Smith probably is too, because his contract isn't guaranteed. So they can pick up his option on Monday to keep control of him but cut him once free agency starts if they need an extra few million in cap space. It wouldn't cost them anything since his deal is not guaranteed until sometime in January. Then they have to decide on Ron Holland's option for the 2027-28 season. But they have until the end of October to decide that. I would guess that is a lock as well if he is still with the team. Quote
Deleterious Posted June 27 Author Posted June 27 Hmmm Sandro Mamukelashvili just declined his option in Toronto. PF who can play some C that shoots the three a bit. Shoots 36% for his career and shot 38.9% from there last year. Could play some stretch 5 minutes. His defense? Did I mention he shoots threes! Yeah, his defense isn't good. Quote
NYLion Posted June 27 Posted June 27 (edited) 10 hours ago, Betrayer said: By that logic, Jalen Duren is a great playoff performer since he played so many minutes in the postseason. And apparently so is your favorite player, Tobias Harris. Let's not forget Duncan Robinson. All perfectly suited for the playoffs. After all, they got a ton of minutes, so that must be it! ...or maybe OKC picked up Jared McCain and wanted to bet on him when Joe was struggling with his shot this playoffs (after shooting 41% the previous two playoffs, including the championship season). Del hates like 90% of the players in the league so good luck to you sir trying to convince him otherwise. Edited June 27 by NYLion 1 Quote
Deleterious Posted June 27 Author Posted June 27 20 minutes ago, NYLion said: Del hates like 90% of the players in the league so good luck to you sir trying to convince him otherwise. No. I hate 90% of the players you like. That is a distinct difference. Quote
Deleterious Posted June 27 Author Posted June 27 On 6/25/2026 at 4:06 PM, Deleterious said: The more I read Ku the more I realize what a ****ing idiot he is. Today he made a list of players better than Jaylen Brown. The White on the list is Derrick White. Quote
Sports_Freak Posted June 28 Posted June 28 20 hours ago, buddha said: if the only thing they do is sub out stew and sub in joe/okorie and re-sign duren, then they got worse, imo. Even if they sign somebody or swing a trade, moving Stewart is a huge blow to their defense, which in turn, is going to hurt their fast break. Stew was one of my all time favorite Pistons...a throwback to the Bad Boy era. He'll be missed. Quote
Betrayer Posted June 28 Posted June 28 7 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: Even if they sign somebody or swing a trade, moving Stewart is a huge blow to their defense, which in turn, is going to hurt their fast break. Stew was one of my all time favorite Pistons...a throwback to the Bad Boy era. He'll be missed. Is it though? My heart says it's a blow because I loved having Stew as well and some of his shot blocks were just insanely awesome, but my head is not so sure. Dude is rarely healthy, only plays about 50 games a year, is always a threat to give the other team a momentum shifting Flagrant Foul or get suspended, and has been insignificant or injured in the playoffs both years. On top of that, when he does play he barely cracks 20 mpg because his knees look like they're about to crumble into dust. I love his toughness, but 15M a year for all that and you start to realize why it probably made sense to move him. Quote
Sports_Freak Posted June 28 Posted June 28 2 hours ago, Betrayer said: Is it though? My heart says it's a blow because I loved having Stew as well and some of his shot blocks were just insanely awesome, but my head is not so sure. Dude is rarely healthy, only plays about 50 games a year, is always a threat to give the other team a momentum shifting Flagrant Foul or get suspended, and has been insignificant or injured in the playoffs both years. On top of that, when he does play he barely cracks 20 mpg because his knees look like they're about to crumble into dust. I love his toughness, but 15M a year for all that and you start to realize why it probably made sense to move him. As long as there's a plan to replace his defense in the games he did play in. But yeah, he had his reputation and the refs always looked at him pretty closely. 1 Quote
Deleterious Posted June 28 Author Posted June 28 I was wrong about tomorrow being the day teams can start talking to other teams free agents. It's actually Tuesday the 30th at 6PM when that happens. Quote
buddha Posted June 28 Posted June 28 it was probably the right time to move stew, if were being honest. the injuries were becoming a concern and he still has value. i think a lot of us are waiting for the otber shoe to drop. with so much talk about the pistons "big game hunting" and bringing in a robin to go with cade's batman, and all we have to show for it is a bench player from okc and a tiny point guard from stanford. offseason's not over yet, but if that's all they day other than overpaying duren, bringing back tobias and - god forbid - bringing in tyler freaking herro, it will be a huge let down. 1 Quote
Betrayer Posted June 29 Posted June 29 4 hours ago, buddha said: it was probably the right time to move stew, if were being honest. the injuries were becoming a concern and he still has value. i think a lot of us are waiting for the otber shoe to drop. with so much talk about the pistons "big game hunting" and bringing in a robin to go with cade's batman, and all we have to show for it is a bench player from okc and a tiny point guard from stanford. offseason's not over yet, but if that's all they day other than overpaying duren, bringing back tobias and - god forbid - bringing in tyler freaking herro, it will be a huge let down. Agreed. Offseason isn't over, in fact it's just starting. My concern isn't whether or not they're trying to make a move because the consistent theme in all the reports I've heard is that they're out there talking to everyone and trying to make something happen. That's great, but is there actually a good deal out there? I have no idea. Sounds like teams want to take everything including your first born child for sorta-stars and Trajan doesn't seem willing to play ball on that level. Not sure I can blame him, but from our perspective as fans it would suck to see nothing impactful happen if teams doesn't come down off of their demands. And yea, I'm still concerned about the Duren dollars as well. Quote
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