ewsieg Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 I enjoyed this unity that we all have had as we lost, and than found, a place to chat again. But let's be real, were we all going to sing Kumbaya? Let's talk Biden. Horrible few weeks. He rises and gains with Coronavirus. He's falling on that now, but ultimately if that's a voting issue, I don't see him getting the blame. I know some think the Afghanistan withdrawal should go down as the greatest US achievement ever, but there were some issues. Add in the whole drone killing of an aid worker as you tout you stopped a terrorist attack and that doesn't help. His party is trying to derail him with the infrastructure bill. Currently the only thing going well for him is the fact that Trump continues to try to destroy the GOP as he points out he's willing to embrace Stacy Abrahms if he doesn't get the candidate he wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 7 hours ago, ewsieg said: I enjoyed this unity that we all have had as we lost, and than found, a place to chat again. But let's be real, were we all going to sing Kumbaya? Let's talk Biden. Horrible few weeks. He rises and gains with Coronavirus. He's falling on that now, but ultimately if that's a voting issue, I don't see him getting the blame. I know some think the Afghanistan withdrawal should go down as the greatest US achievement ever, but there were some issues. Add in the whole drone killing of an aid worker as you tout you stopped a terrorist attack and that doesn't help. His party is trying to derail him with the infrastructure bill. Currently the only thing going well for him is the fact that Trump continues to try to destroy the GOP as he points out he's willing to embrace Stacy Abrahms if he doesn't get the candidate he wants. "His party" by which you mean a schizophrenic senator from Arizona. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted September 30, 2021 Author Share Posted September 30, 2021 1 hour ago, romad1 said: "His party" by which you mean a schizophrenic senator from Arizona. Or the 50 or so members of the house that are threatening not to take the bird in hand (bipartisan infrastructure bill). Speaking of Sinema, sounds like progressives are talking about primarying her. Apparently as much as they hate Trump, they think the same way. Best way to ensure that flips back to a GOP is to put a progressive up against the GOP there. I understand Sinema and Manchin are the obstacles from getting everything the progressives want and desire. But they appear to be the only ones concerned about what that could entail a few years from now, let's say if we have a DeSantis as POTUS, McConnel leading the senate, and McCarthy leading the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 (edited) You mean when they go ahead and destroy the filibuster themselves? Or are you talking about how they've already exempted their main two priorities (SCOTUS & Tax Cuts) from the filibuster altogether? I'd be interested to see what GOP nonsense is getting blocked by filibuster. Edited September 30, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 (edited) I think it's kinda funny that you argue that their concern is when the GOP is in control. I'd wager that their concern is getting reelected. It makes sense for Manchin to be this way b/c of that, but I don't know if I'd say the same for Kristen. I don't think it's much of a move to the left to go from one of the two dems that doesn't support it to one of the 48 that do. That's all they need to do in Arizona primary. 350b/year for 10 years actually isn't all that much money. Pretty sure that's less than half of our annual military budget. Edited September 30, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 A few decades ago Republicans and Democrats basically had the same goals but they just had different ideas how to get there. I don't think their goals are close anymore and playing politics is more important than ever. People can complain all they want about Trump but the country was in better shape in many areas when he was in office. Covid has stayed about the same under Biden even though he campaigned he was the great fix all for it. Our politicians need to work together for what's best for the country not what's best for other countries or their citizens. Get an affordable budget, shore up the borders, help business with Covid and work on inflation which will hurt all of us very soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 Yeah better shape under the former guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted September 30, 2021 Author Share Posted September 30, 2021 1 hour ago, pfife said: You mean when they go ahead and destroy the filibuster themselves? Or are you talking about how they've already exempted their main two priorities (SCOTUS & Tax Cuts) from the filibuster altogether? I'd be interested to see what GOP nonsense is getting blocked by filibuster. Legit point. My fear is destroying the filibuster will look like an overreach, especially if the dems start passing laws that aren't wildly popular. These infrastructure bills would be fine, folks want them, it's what after that which could be an issue. History already says the house and likely senate will be controlled in 2 years by the GOP. Overreach (and no Trump) is about the only thing I could see giving the GOP a shot at POTUS. Based on how Trump is destroying the GOP, that puts a bunch more MTG types running the show in the house, McCarthy more than happy to go along as he's in power, McConnell who cares about wins more than the country, and in my scenario DeSantis who you could argue is worse than Trump, because he knows better and goes along anyway. 42 minutes ago, Archie said: A few decades ago Republicans and Democrats basically had the same goals but they just had different ideas how to get there. I don't think their goals are close anymore and playing politics is more important than ever. I'd argue it was this way as recent as 2015. Like you say, vast differences in how to get to the same place, but overall goals were close. I think individually that is still the case, but it's clearly easier than we probably all thought it could be in getting swept up. Right now you have only one party that even has goals. The other party just wants to 'own' the other side, there is no policy, no goal, no substance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 (edited) Everything was doing very well with Trump until covid came along which resulted in all of the job loss. If it weren't for covid he would be in office now. Yes, I will agree he did mostly a bad job managing covid. Edited September 30, 2021 by Archie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 1 minute ago, ewsieg said: Legit point. My fear is destroying the filibuster will look like an overreach, especially if the dems start passing laws that aren't wildly popular. These infrastructure bills would be fine, folks want them, it's what after that which could be an issue. History already says the house and likely senate will be controlled in 2 years by the GOP. Overreach (and no Trump) is about the only thing I could see giving the GOP a shot at POTUS. Based on how Trump is destroying the GOP, that puts a bunch more MTG types running the show in the house, McCarthy more than happy to go along as he's in power, McConnell who cares about wins more than the country, and in my scenario DeSantis who you could argue is worse than Trump, because he knows better and goes along anyway. I'd argue it was this way as recent as 2015. Like you say, vast differences in how to get to the same place, but overall goals were close. I think individually that is still the case, but it's clearly easier than we probably all thought it could be in getting swept up. Right now you have only one party that even has goals. The other party just wants to 'own' the other side, there is no policy, no goal, no substance. Eliminating the filibuster will be a disaster. The dems want to push everything through including stacking the Supreme Court. None of that will better the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Archie said: A few decades ago Republicans and Democrats basically had the same goals but they just had different ideas how to get there. I don't think their goals are close anymore and playing politics is more important than ever. People can complain all they want about Trump but the country was in better shape in many areas when he was in office. Covid has stayed about the same under Biden even though he campaigned he was the great fix all for it. Our politicians need to work together for what's best for the country not what's best for other countries or their citizens. Get an affordable budget, shore up the borders, help business with Covid and work on inflation which will hurt all of us very soon. When trump was in charge, we had the deadliest year on record, as well as the worst year of job losses in almost 100 years. Not sure I buy that "the country was in better shape" when he was in office. Covid hasn't stayed the same under Biden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Archie said: ... People can complain all they want about Trump but the country was in better shape in many areas when he was in office... You mean like when 600,000 Americans died from Covid because Trump blew it off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, ewsieg said: Legit point. My fear is destroying the filibuster will look like an overreach, especially if the dems start passing laws that aren't wildly popular. These infrastructure bills would be fine, folks want them, it's what after that which could be an issue. History already says the house and likely senate will be controlled in 2 years by the GOP. Overreach (and no Trump) is about the only thing I could see giving the GOP a shot at POTUS. Based on how Trump is destroying the GOP, that puts a bunch more MTG types running the show in the house, McCarthy more than happy to go along as he's in power, McConnell who cares about wins more than the country, and in my scenario DeSantis who you could argue is worse than Trump, because he knows better and goes along anyway. I don't think destroying the filibuster would be considered overreach in and of itself, but I think it's fair to say that it may serve to control their impulses. However I can think of probably 80 some million people better to rely on for Democratic party impulse control than the 50 GOP clowns in the Senate. I don't think trading our infrastructure, voting rights, etc etc for some impulse control is a good trade off. Edited September 30, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 Just now, 1984Echoes said: You mean like when 600,000 Americans died from Covid because Trump blew it off? fyi it's basically the same now though even though 600k haven't died under Biden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said: Yeah better shape under the former guy. And then there's this as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 One guy can't rebuild things, but one guy can sure as hell destroy it all, and he's not finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted September 30, 2021 Author Share Posted September 30, 2021 14 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: And then there's this as well... These never tell the whole story though. H-dub made some economic decisions that Clinton (to his credit, our detriment) kept going and he benefited from them. Some of those decisions also led to the 2008 economic strife that W took the hit on and gave the recovery numbers to Obama, propping his numbers up. As for Trump, he inherited a decent economy and for the most part, didn't screw it up to bad. As for Covid, can't think of too many countries that escaped a harsh economic hit, regardless if they were perceived to be successful against Covid or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 45 minutes ago, Archie said: Eliminating the filibuster will be a disaster. The dems want to push everything through including stacking the Supreme Court. None of that will better the USA. Funny since Republicans ended the filibuster on Supreme Court nominations and rammed through Amy Coney Barrett after holding up Merrick Garland's nomination for 9 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 12 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Funny since Republicans ended the filibuster on Supreme Court nominations and rammed through Amy Coney Barrett after holding up Merrick Garland's nomination for 9 months. Ended and eliminate are two different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 48 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: You mean like when 600,000 Americans died from Covid because Trump blew it off? Trump didn't handle covid well especially the communication part. I don't think the results would have been different no matter who was POTUS but we will never know. Don't forget under Trump there was the fast track of a vaccine. The same vaccine that's being mandated to most that Harris said she wouldn't touch because it came from the Trump administration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted September 30, 2021 Author Share Posted September 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Funny since Republicans ended the filibuster on Supreme Court nominations and rammed through Amy Coney Barrett after holding up Merrick Garland's nomination for 9 months. Indeed, and even with that, they didn't get rid of the filibuster altogether. As a point of clarity, i'm not arguing that if the dems do it, once the republicans have control, than they'll do it. Well, I guess that is what i'm saying, so to clarify. If the dems don't do it, and we end up with republican control in 2024, I certainly wouldn't put it past them in doing it. What I am arguing is that the GOP is so close from never being able to win a national seat in it's current form. IMO, give them another 4-6 years and they'll struggle in congress too, but i'm getting sidetracked. In 2024, they do still have a good chance of having control of the house and senate. So it's imperative not to let them get one last shot at the White House. To Pfife's point, getting rid of the filibuster alone wouldn't give Trump or one of his lackey's a chance IMO, but if the filibuster is removed and progressive dems decide to push for and overrun Biden, every gain progressives might take, could be wiped out soon after. The overreach I see progressives wanting to do would, at worse, put a burden of debt on the back of our kids. (What's a few more trillion at this point.) The overreach I could see this current GOP do if given a shot, would jeopardize our standing as a democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 4 minutes ago, Archie said: Ended and eliminate are two different things. No, same thing. Republicans eliminated it and now only need a simple majority. They did this so they could push through Gorsuch. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/01/fact-check-gop-ended-senate-filibuster-supreme-court-nominees/3573369001/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 33 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said: One guy can't rebuild things, but one guy can sure as hell destroy it all, and he's not finished. How right you are. Its happening as we sit here and wait for the Tigers to play. Open borders and the largest spending bill ever will help that destruction along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 25 minutes ago, ewsieg said: ... As for Trump, he inherited a decent economy and for the most part, didn't screw it up to bad... In other words: He rode Obama's coattails using Obama's economy. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, Archie said: ... Don't forget under Trump there was the fast track of a vaccine... Don't forget: Trump's fast track didn't have shit to do with the vaccine. That was all private industry research and development. Trump's fast track was for logistics purposes only. Not the vaccine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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