The Gaza War

[Jim Cowan]

37 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

So I talked to my mom about this whole situation last night at dinner with her. My mom is your run of the mill Democrat. She always votes in every election and always votes for Democrats. She's progressive, but not socialist or DSA. More in the Warren lane of the party. She consumes her news primarily from MSNBC, the Today Show, Meet the Press, This Week on ABC, 60 Minutes, Time Magazine, and through articles online. She doesn't read or get content from any of the super lefty news sites like Democracy Now,  the Intercept,  Jacobin, Counter Punch, Salon, etc.  She's not on Twitter ever and rarely on Facebook.

Keep in mind that her first husband and his family, not my father, were Palestinian and Arab-American. I asked her what she thought about the situation, trying to limit my opinion and bias as best I could, to gauge how she truly feels as a run of the mill, mid-70s, white democratic women. 

She believes all of the following . . .

1. What Hamas did on October 7th was wrong, barbaric, and was a terrorist attack that should be strongly condemned. 

2. Isreal has a right to fight back against Hamas but they have gone too far and are becoming an occupying force like the United States was in Iraq. 

3. Israeli settlements are a significant concern that don't get the attention and condemnation they should. 

4. Isreal is bordering on a genocide and needs to pull out of Gaza to allow humanitarian relief to come in. 

5. While Hamas is cowardly and uses human shields she believes that the Isreali government is not being discriminate enough with their bombing campaigns. She's also upset at them bombing southern Gaza now after declaring that a safe haven weeks ago. 

6. She doesn't understand why Joe Biden won't call for a ceasefire and why we give aid with out condition to Isreal. 

7. She'll vote for Joe Biden but feels he has handled this situation poorly and with not enough regard for Palestinian life. She is saddened at the massive loss of life and feels that Biden won't call for Isreal to back down. She feels this is the worst moment of his presidency far and a way. I asked her if she thought this was a failure on Biden's part and she said a fairly stern yes to that question.

8. She understands why people call this a genocide and are angry at Biden but that in the end, Trump would make the situation far worse. She feels Biden is trapped in a box but could do more all at the same time. 

As a progressive, but not leftist, older, suburban white woman,  I think that mom is fairly representative of a big portion of the average democratic voting block. She thinks Biden is increasingly on the wrong side of his party on this one and needs to show more concern overall to the Palestinian cause. She said dating back from the years she was married to her first husband Esa, whose family was Palestinian, opened her eyes up to their side of the story more than normal. 

Your Mom is my clone.  I agree 100% with her observations, I could not have said them so well.

Biden has a tough row to hoe here.  As an example on the CBC news recently a Jewish couple from Toronto, leaders in their diaspora community, described how much anti-Semiic prejudice they were experiencing and as a result, more to the point, how much they hate Netanyahu.  They hate Netanyahu, they freaking hate him.

So Biden is on an island that is getting smaller and smaller, an island that the ultra-progressives have probably already abandoned.

 

 

[Motown Bombers]

Why don't progressives just tell Palestinians to hand over Gaza to keep peace since they are going to lose to Israel like they tell Ukraine to just hand over territory to Russia? How does a ceasefire work when Hamas has broken every ceasefire and continues to state publicly they will attack Israel? 

[oblong]

7 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

So I talked to my mom about this whole situation last night at dinner with her. My mom is your run of the mill Democrat. She always votes in every election and always votes for Democrats. She's progressive, but not socialist or DSA. More in the Warren lane of the party. She consumes her news primarily from MSNBC, the Today Show, Meet the Press, This Week on ABC, 60 Minutes, Time Magazine, and through articles online. She doesn't read or get content from any of the super lefty news sites like Democracy Now,  the Intercept,  Jacobin, Counter Punch, Salon, etc.  She's not on Twitter ever and rarely on Facebook.

Keep in mind that her first husband and his family, not my father, were Palestinian and Arab-American. I asked her what she thought about the situation, trying to limit my opinion and bias as best I could, to gauge how she truly feels as a run of the mill, mid-70s, white democratic women. 

She believes all of the following . . .

1. What Hamas did on October 7th was wrong, barbaric, and was a terrorist attack that should be strongly condemned. 

2. Isreal has a right to fight back against Hamas but they have gone too far and are becoming an occupying force like the United States was in Iraq. 

3. Israeli settlements are a significant concern that don't get the attention and condemnation they should. 

4. Isreal is bordering on a genocide and needs to pull out of Gaza to allow humanitarian relief to come in. 

5. While Hamas is cowardly and uses human shields she believes that the Isreali government is not being discriminate enough with their bombing campaigns. She's also upset at them bombing southern Gaza now after declaring that a safe haven weeks ago. 

6. She doesn't understand why Joe Biden won't call for a ceasefire and why we give aid with out condition to Isreal. 

7. She'll vote for Joe Biden but feels he has handled this situation poorly and with not enough regard for Palestinian life. She is saddened at the massive loss of life and feels that Biden won't call for Isreal to back down. She feels this is the worst moment of his presidency far and a way. I asked her if she thought this was a failure on Biden's part and she said a fairly stern yes to that question.

8. She understands why people call this a genocide and are angry at Biden but that in the end, Trump would make the situation far worse. She feels Biden is trapped in a box but could do more all at the same time. 

As a progressive, but not leftist, older, suburban white woman,  I think that mom is fairly representative of a big portion of the average democratic voting block. She thinks Biden is increasingly on the wrong side of his party on this one and needs to show more concern overall to the Palestinian cause. She said dating back from the years she was married to her first husband Esa, whose family was Palestinian, opened her eyes up to their side of the story more than normal. 

I don't disagree with any of that.  I said before the fighting started that Israel needs to be careful not to lose their "goodwill'', cant think of a better word.  I thought of the movie Patriot Games when Ryan is talking to the CIA folks about the murder of some IRA guys at a farmhouse, "It's British soldiers Jack getting out of hand, they're not above it, not after a hit on the Royal Family".

 

[Biff Mayhem]

7 minutes ago, oblong said:

I don't disagree with any of that.  I said before the fighting started that Israel needs to be careful not to lose their "goodwill'', cant think of a better word.  I thought of the movie Patriot Games when Ryan is talking to the CIA folks about the murder of some IRA guys at a farmhouse, "It's British soldiers Jack getting out of hand, they're not above it, not after a hit on the Royal Family".

 

Bible prophecy says that Israel will do something that will turn the world against them and there is a theory that they will destroy Damascus with a nuclear bomb. FWIW.

[ben9753]

50 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Why don't progressives just tell Palestinians to hand over Gaza to keep peace since they are going to lose to Israel like they tell Ukraine to just hand over territory to Russia? How does a ceasefire work when Hamas has broken every ceasefire and continues to state publicly they will attack Israel? 

Not to mention they still hold 100 hostages. Not sure how you talk about a ceasefire under these terms. It’s sad that innocent Palistinians are caught in the crossfire, but thats on Hamas more than Israel. 

[chasfh]

50 minutes ago, Biff Mayhem said:

Bible prophecy says that Israel will do something that will turn the world against them and there is a theory that they will destroy Damascus with a nuclear bomb. FWIW.

OK, but what does Nostradamus say?

[oblong]

49 minutes ago, ben9753 said:

Not to mention they still hold 100 hostages. Not sure how you talk about a ceasefire under these terms. It’s sad that innocent Palistinians are caught in the crossfire, but thats on Hamas more than Israel. 

These cease fire protesters are simply idiots.   They act like Joe Biden is running the show.

They never mention the Hamas hostages.  They never mention Hamas.  To many of them Hamas are freedom fighters.  To many of them Oct 7 didn't even happen.

You can't reason with that kind of stupidity

[1984Echoes]

58 minutes ago, ben9753 said:

Not to mention they still hold 100 hostages. Not sure how you talk about a ceasefire under these terms. It’s sad that innocent Palistinians are caught in the crossfire, but thats on Hamas more than Israel. 

And not just that.

Hamas said, explicitly, give us the 6,000 Hamas prisoners you hold (murderers, terrorists, failed bombers, etc...) or we will MURDER the remaining 134 hostages. They weren't vague about this.

Because...

That's normal...

Right? (open question to anyone, not pointed at ben...)

[pfife]

There was a ceasefire 2 weeks ago.   Posting like it's impossible and even talking about one is impossible is disproven by history from 2 weeks ago.

[1776]

28 minutes ago, pfife said:

There was a ceasefire 2 weeks ago.   Posting like it's impossible and even talking about one is impossible is disproven by history from 2 weeks ago.

There was a ceasefire. However, going into it anyone with any knowledge of this situation knew it would be temporary. Bibi has made it very clear that until stated goals are accomplished, Israel isn’t backing off. 

[1984Echoes]

34 minutes ago, pfife said:

There was a ceasefire 2 weeks ago.   Posting like it's impossible and even talking about one is impossible is disproven by history from 2 weeks ago.

It's not impossible.

But the roadblock to agreeing to another one is Hamas.

They would rather murder the hostages then relieve the war and fix Gaza.

They want their murdering terrorists back, no matter the consequences.

[Motown Bombers]

Hamas broke the ceasefire from two weeks ago. All these calls for a ceasefire are one sided. They all want Israel to ceasefire. 

[pfife]

7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

It's not impossible.

But the roadblock to agreeing to another one is Hamas.

They would rather murder the hostages then relieve the war and fix Gaza.

They want their murdering terrorists back, no matter the consequences.

Those conditions also preceded the previous ceasefire.

[pfife]

11 minutes ago, 1776 said:

There was a ceasefire. However, going into it anyone with any knowledge of this situation knew it would be temporary. Bibi has made it very clear that until stated goals are accomplished, Israel isn’t backing off. 

You seem to be suggesting Bibi is an obstacle to ceasefire to which multiple posters have disagreed.   I will let you all hash out your disagreement.

[oblong]

Hamas has probably already murdered the hostages so they know they have nothing else to offer to keep a "cease fire".  Or they just want to keep raping them.

 

[Motown Bombers]

I just can't imagine if a bunch of Canadians parachuted into Lollapalooza and raped and beheaded thousands of people, pillaged the southside of Chicago burning people out of their homes, parading their corpses in the streets, and took a couple hundred hostages back to Canada that people wouldn't be demanding the US go into Canada and smoke all these terrorists out of whatever hole they are hiding in. 

[1984Echoes]

13 minutes ago, pfife said:

Those conditions also preceded the previous ceasefire.

That doesn't change anything I've said.

Hamas is the impediment to a ceasefire, not Israel.

Unless you are advocating Israel to a unilateral ceasefire, basically saying to Hamas: "Sure, we'll give you whatever you want."

[1984Echoes]

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I just can't imagine if a bunch of Canadians parachuted into Lollapalooza and raped and beheaded thousands of people, pillaged the southside of Chicago burning people out of their homes, parading their corpses in the streets, and took a couple hundred hostages back to Canada that people wouldn't be demanding the US go into Canada and smoke all these terrorists out of whatever hole they are hiding in. 

EXACTLY my thoughts.

[1776]

25 minutes ago, pfife said:

You seem to be suggesting Bibi is an obstacle to ceasefire to which multiple posters have disagreed.   I will let you all hash out your disagreement.

I’m not suggesting anything. Them’s the facts.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

55 minutes ago, 1776 said:

There was a ceasefire. However, going into it anyone with any knowledge of this situation knew it would be temporary. Bibi has made it very clear that until stated goals are accomplished, Israel isn’t backing off. 

Well great, Bibi is going to do what he wants. And in response to Bibi, how high is the United States going to let the death toll get in Gaza before we put conditions on military aid to Israel? 20,000? 30,000? 40,000? 50,000? 100,000? Think I'm being snarky or sarcastic with those numbers, just look at what we did in Iraq, to Iraqi civilians. That shock and awe, bomb them to rubble, then fight them door-to-door approach is exactly what the IDF is following here. And the death toll will continue to escalate quickly, just as it did in cities like Baghdad and Fallujah. 

[1984Echoes]

1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Well great, Bibi is going to do what he wants. And in response to Bibi, how high is the United States going to let the death toll get in Gaza before we put conditions on military aid to Israel? 20,000? 30,000? 40,000? 50,000? 100,000? Think I'm being snarky or sarcastic with those numbers, just look at what we did in Iraq, to Iraqi civilians. That shock and awe, bomb them to rubble, then fight them door-to-door approach is exactly what the IDF is following here. And the death toll will continue to escalate quickly, just as it did in cities like Baghdad and Fallujah. 

Do you want to stop the death toll, RIGHT NOW?

Easy:

Hamas = unconditional surrender and gives up the remaining 134 hostages without conditions.

The death toll stops TODAY under those circumstances.

That works for everyone... right?

[1984Echoes]

Oh wait...

It's a problem...

If Hamas justs...

LAYS DOWN their ARMS?

But...

Why?

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Well great, Bibi is going to do what he wants. And in response to Bibi, how high is the United States going to let the death toll get in Gaza before we put conditions on military aid to Israel? 20,000? 30,000? 40,000? 50,000? 100,000? Think I'm being snarky or sarcastic with those numbers, just look at what we did in Iraq, to Iraqi civilians. That shock and awe, bomb them to rubble, then fight them door-to-door approach is exactly what the IDF is following here. And the death toll will continue to escalate quickly, just as it did in cities like Baghdad and Fallujah. 

The US isn't doing ****. Israel is the one doing the bombing. The hubris of Americans to think they can control Israel. Biden and the US are the reason the death toll isn't higher. You want to help Palestinians then demand Egypt open their border and have these Arab countries take in refugees. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

Do you want to stop the death toll, RIGHT NOW?

Easy:

Hamas = unconditional surrender and gives up the remaining 134 hostages without conditions.

The death toll stops TODAY under those circumstances.

That works for everyone... right?

Sure, I would love it if Hamas unconditionally surrendered. That works for me, but of course we know that won't happen.

So in the meantime, what do we do as the US government? Do you believe we should keep sending military aid over to Israel without conditions placed on that aid? Sending aid over knowing that Bibi won't support a two-state solution when the IDF is through with its campaign. And if we should keep sending Israel military aid without conditions, how high do we let the death toll get before we start placing conditions on that aid?

[Motown Bombers]

We know Hamas won't surrender, so instead of demanding the US make Hamas surrender we demand Israel to a ceasefire? The ****ed up logic of left wing tankies.