RedRamage Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 A little project I'm working on that I need opinions on the top three Lions of all time. Try not to let recency bias effect your decision as much as possible. I think Barry Sanders has to be in there for sure. Calvin Johnson? Bobby Layne? I'm tempted to put in Dutch Clark just because he's my favorite old-timey Lion, but he wasn't with the Lions for a long, long time. He did get them their first Championship though... I dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Lem Barney deserves consideration. Very dominant as a DB and dynamic as a kick returner. Best player on a decent team for most of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 A Stafford-Johnson-Sanders trio would be pretty epic. I'm not sure how you compare old time Lions to more modern but I think Sanders and Johnson are in the top 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 barry is the only easy choice. calvin? joe schmidt? lem barney? night train lane? stafford? i'd probably go with barry, calvin, and alex karras. if you go by approximate value: barry 149 stafford 133 wayne walker 124 lem barney 122 alex karras 122 **** lebeau 106 lomas 99 calvin 94 herman moore 92 raiola 89 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) Forgot about Walker. He added value to his LB role by being a kicker as well. Outside linebacker is one of the harder places to stand out on a football field though. Edited April 22 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 16 minutes ago, buddha said: barry is the only easy choice. calvin? joe schmidt? lem barney? night train lane? stafford? i'd probably go with barry, calvin, and alex karras. if you go by approximate value: barry 149 stafford 133 wayne walker 124 lem barney 122 alex karras 122 **** lebeau 106 lomas 99 calvin 94 herman moore 92 raiola 89 No Billy Sims? He would be in my top 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 We really need to ask this question in 5 years when we can add Jared Goff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 19 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: No Billy Sims? He would be in my top 10. only played 3 full seasons. he ranks 29th in AV. Suh is 24th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Since I started watching in 1970...Barry, Calvin and Lem Barney. Barney claims to be the only member of the Football HOF to have a gold record. He and Mel Farr did backing vocals on Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin On" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnoxP Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 For sure Barry. Then I'd never be able to argue anyone of these is more deserving, of #2-3, Karras, Calvin, Barney, Joe Schmidt, Lane. And probably forgot someone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 i wonder if the lions will retire stafford's number? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 I've said this before but I think Stafford could become the Grant Hill of the Lions. A good individual player whose career was spent on a mediocre team that made the playoffs a couple times and was bounced in the first round. He then opted to leave and was traded for a cast off. The cast off comes in and is the foundation for more team success than Grant Hill ever had. Ben Wallace is remembered more fondly even though I would consider Grant Hill a better overall player. I could see Goff having his number retired before Stafford. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 51 minutes ago, buddha said: only played 3 full seasons. he ranks 29th in AV. Suh is 24th. That's it? Wow. It was an incredible 3 years though. Electric.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Ben Wallace is remembered more fondly even though I would consider Grant Hill a better overall player. I could see Goff having his number retired before Stafford. Ben hit his stride in one and probably the only short era of league history when his particular skill set could dominate a game. Pretty good luck for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Barry Calvin Jason Hanson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 14 hours ago, buddha said: i wonder if the lions will retire stafford's number? Plot twist: Yes but for Jameson Williams. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRamage Posted April 23 Author Share Posted April 23 15 hours ago, Motown Bombers said: We really need to ask this question in 5 years when we can add Jared Goff. Total side discussion... but what would it take to to declare Goff the greatest QB of the Lions of all time? Right now I'd place him anywhere between 2 and 4 depending on the day and how persuasive the various supporters are. Layne still has to be #1 given what he did with the Lions. After that I think you can make the case for Clark, Stafford, or Goff. Clark would be a clear #2 if he played a little longer and/or had one more championship. I still think he's the front runner for the #2 spot. Stafford has more years with the Lions, Goff has more post season success. How much is Stafford's lack of success with the Lions due to the front office and coaching staff generally being bad? How much of Goff's success is because the front office and coaching staff is good? Hard to say. (Disclaimer here: I am NOT saying Goff is only good because of the team built around him, but there's NO QUESTION that the current FO and CS is better than we've see in the past and this will give ANY QB a boost.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 6 minutes ago, RedRamage said: Total side discussion... but what would it take to to declare Goff the greatest QB of the Lions of all time? Right now I'd place him anywhere between 2 and 4 depending on the day and how persuasive the various supporters are. Layne still has to be #1 given what he did with the Lions. After that I think you can make the case for Clark, Stafford, or Goff. Clark would be a clear #2 if he played a little longer and/or had one more championship. I still think he's the front runner for the #2 spot. Stafford has more years with the Lions, Goff has more post season success. How much is Stafford's lack of success with the Lions due to the front office and coaching staff generally being bad? How much of Goff's success is because the front office and coaching staff is good? Hard to say. (Disclaimer here: I am NOT saying Goff is only good because of the team built around him, but there's NO QUESTION that the current FO and CS is better than we've see in the past and this will give ANY QB a boost.) If Goff stays healthy this season, he will move to 2nd in Lions history in passing yards and 3rd in TDs. He's 1st among Lions QBs who have played a full season in QB rating and completion %. He plays another 5 seasons with the Lions he can get close to Stafford's overall production and I think he makes a move to number given the likely higher probability of team success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRamage Posted April 23 Author Share Posted April 23 1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said: If Goff stays healthy this season, he will move to 2nd in Lions history in passing yards and 3rd in TDs. He's 1st among Lions QBs who have played a full season in QB rating and completion %. He plays another 5 seasons with the Lions he can get close to Stafford's overall production and I think he makes a move to number given the likely higher probability of team success. Passing yards aren't really a good comparison between generations. Certainly Goff and Stafford are contemporaries so comparing their passing yards and TDs is fine and 100% valid. It's when you start comparing 2020s NFL stats with 1950s NFL stats where it gets more dicey. You missed a number in your reply to me so I don't know if you were saying Goff would move ahead of Stafford, I can't really disagree. I don't think he moves ahead of Layne. Even a SB win in 2024 won't put him over Layne in my humble opinion. I think a SB win does put him above Clark. Right now I think I have 'em: 1. Layne 2. Clark 3.4 Stafford 3.6 Goff Give me two more good seasons of Goff and another playoff win and I'd put him ahead of Stafford as greatest Lion QB ranking. (You could probably make the case that Goff > Stafford right now career wise. But as Lions QB, Goff doesn't have the longevity yet.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRamage Posted April 23 Author Share Posted April 23 On a side note to my side note to this discussion (dang it... I'm double derailing my own thread!) I would have LOVED to see what Stafford would have done on the current Lions team. This would be purely to answer the question of whether Stafford really was a great NFL QB, or just a great Lions QB. Of course this is completely impossible because the current Lions team is built, in a significant part, on the trade happening. Without that we don't have some of the key pieces so there's no way to just swap Stafford and Goff and think: "what if the trade doesn't happen..." The Lions success right now is tied to that trade in a meaningful way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRamage Posted April 23 Author Share Posted April 23 18 hours ago, buddha said: barry is the only easy choice. calvin? joe schmidt? lem barney? night train lane? stafford? i'd probably go with barry, calvin, and alex karras. if you go by approximate value: barry 149 stafford 133 wayne walker 124 AV only goes back to 1960, unfortunately, which means Layne does show up on the list because by 1960 he was in Pittsburgh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 30 minutes ago, RedRamage said: On a side note to my side note to this discussion (dang it... I'm double derailing my own thread!) I would have LOVED to see what Stafford would have done on the current Lions team. This would be purely to answer the question of whether Stafford really was a great NFL QB, or just a great Lions QB. This is a great discussion fodder question because we know both guys so well but can never answer the question with any certainty, but I'm sort of leaning toward Goff. Matthew has all that physical talent, and Goff has laid an egg in a game or two, but I've come around to thinking that Goff's decision making has gotten so good under Campbell that I'd take him where he is now over Matthew at any point in his career on the same team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 Stafford wasn't completely devoid of talent. He had Calvine Johnson and Golden Tate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: This is a great discussion fodder question because we know both guys so well but can never answer the question with any certainty, but I'm sort of leaning toward Goff. Matthew has all that physical talent, and Goff has laid an egg in a game or two, but I've come around to thinking that Goff's decision making has gotten so good under Campbell that I'd take him where he is now over Matthew at any point in his career on the same team. I also think how good Goff's decision making has gotten under Campbell shows how overrated McVay is. This is the QB McVay said was so broken he had to attach a 1st round pick just to make him go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: I also think how good Goff's decision making has gotten under Campbell shows how overrated McVay is. This is the QB McVay said was so broken he had to attach a 1st round pick just to make him go away. TBF, McVay has had enough success that he's shown he's not chopped liver either. Sometimes two particular people just don't work together and they are both better off to part company. Win-Win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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