Need Advice: Top three Lions of all time.

[NYLion]

 

27 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Stafford wasn't completely devoid of talent. He had Calvine Johnson and Golden Tate. 

Yeah, the argument that he played with trash his entire time as a Lion is bogus, I never understood it. Granted, Goff currently has a better supporting cast than Stafford ever did offensively from players to coaches but Stafford has one of the best receivers of all time to throw to, Tate and a defense that was borderline top 10 a few years. Not blaming Stafford for the zero playoff wins but it's not like he didn't play on teams that weren't capable of making a playoff run.

In terms of top 3 Lions of all time, I'd say that Barry and Calvin have to be a top 3 then it could be a whole bunch of guys that I never saw play. Layne, Barney, Karras, Sims maybe?

[Motown Bombers]

17 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

TBF,  McVay has had enough success that he's shown he's not chopped liver either. Sometimes two particular people just don't work together and they are both better off to part company. Win-Win. 

If you are going to be considered a great coach, you should be able to work with the QB you agreed was the franchise QB and gave a massive contract to. 

[RedRamage]

25 minutes ago, NYLion said:

Yeah, the argument that he played with trash his entire time as a Lion is bogus, I never understood it.

I don't think anyone has ever made the claim that Stafford had nothing but trash as teammates. That said, on the whole, Goff has better talent surrounding him. The OL was never as good for Stafford as it is for Goff and that plays a MAJOR role in how good an offense can be.

[Motown Bombers]

4/5ths of the offensive line Goff had last year were around when Stafford was on the team. 

[Jimbo]

On pure talent you have to go with Barry and Calvin for sure.  Top 3 (or close) at their position to ever play the game.  Also very exciting to watch and you would pay just to see them.  These are guys that could of even been better if they were on teams that were more complete teams.

How long do you go back for.  Lane would have to be the third if when they played doesn't matter.

The only current Lion that I think will be considered 5-10 years from now would be Hutch.  Sewel has a chance since by a lot of people he is considered a top tackle right now and could be considered as a top 10 all time if he gets better.  Although its really hard to put anybody on the O-line as a top 3 best for any team. 

[MichiganCardinal]

1. Charles Rogers

2. Joey Harrington

3. Andre Ware

Honorable mentions to Reggie Rogers, Mike Williams, and Jahlani Tavai.

[KnoxP]

8 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

1. Charles Rogers

2. Joey Harrington

3. Andre Ware

Honorable mentions to Reggie Rogers, Mike Williams, and Jahlani Tavai.

Here's one for your list...courtesy of Wikipedia...what a write up...🤣

Lynn Ray Boden (born June 5, 1953) is an American former professional football player who was an offensive guard for five seasons in the National Football League (NFL) with the Detroit Lions (1975–1978) and the Chicago Bears (1979).^[1] He played college football at South Dakota State University.^[2] He was selected in the first round of the 1975 NFL draft with the 13th overall pick by Detroit.^[3] He has 2 children, Eric and Molly. His favorite restaurant is Shucks.

[RedRamage]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

4/5ths of the offensive line Goff had last year were around when Stafford was on the team. 

You're being disingenuous when you say that.

Decker overlaps Stafford for 5 seasons (16-20)
Glasgow overlaps Stafford for 4 seasons (16-19)
Ragnow overlaps Stafford for 3 seasons (18-20)
Jonah Jackson overlaps Stafford for 1 season (20)

Let's give a point for each OL player from 2023 who played in each season with Stafford:

09: 0 - 10: 0 - 11: 0 - 12: 0 - 13: 0 - 14: 0 - 15: 0 - 16: 2 - 17: 2 - 18: 3 - 19: 3 - 20: 3

Out of a possible 60 points, we get 13. Saying "4th/5ths" is technically true because 4 of the 5 starters from 2023 did play at least one season with Stafford on the Lions. But it implies that Stafford had largely the same OL that Goff did through his career in Detroit, which is not even close to true.
 

 

[RedRamage]

46 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

1. Charles Rogers

2. Joey Harrington

3. Andre Ware

Honorable mentions to Reggie Rogers, Mike Williams, and Jahlani Tavai.

Oh... please, please do not bring up BMW.

[Motown Bombers]

5 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

You're being disingenuous when you say that.

Decker overlaps Stafford for 5 seasons (16-20)
Glasgow overlaps Stafford for 4 seasons (16-19)
Ragnow overlaps Stafford for 3 seasons (18-20)
Jonah Jackson overlaps Stafford for 1 season (20)

Let's give a point for each OL player from 2023 who played in each season with Stafford:

09: 0 - 10: 0 - 11: 0 - 12: 0 - 13: 0 - 14: 0 - 15: 0 - 16: 2 - 17: 2 - 18: 3 - 19: 3 - 20: 3

Out of a possible 60 points, we get 13. Saying "4th/5ths" is technically true because 4 of the 5 starters from 2023 did play at least one season with Stafford on the Lions. But it implies that Stafford had largely the same OL that Goff did through his career in Detroit, which is not even close to true.
 

 

I mean, 3 of those 5 played with Stafford as long as Goff has been a Lion. 

[MichiganCardinal]

17 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Oh... please, please do not bring up BMW.

Maybe I misunderstood the prompt...... hmm....

[Motown Bombers]

Has Stafford really been better on the Rams since he allegedly has more talent? The numbers really don't say so. The Rams defense in 2021 was ranked higher than any Lions defense except for 2014 and 2016. Last year the Rams were very Lions-esq, winning 10 games and getting the last Wild Card and losing on the road in the playoffs. I contend the Lions never had success was because the defense was always bottom of the league. The one year it was good the Lions won 11 games. 

[RedRamage]

24 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Has Stafford really been better on the Rams since he allegedly has more talent?

The question really boils down to this:

Do you think that the talent that Goff has around him right now (from coaching to front office to on the teammates) isn't better than the talent that Stafford every had around him for any one season? I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a season where this is true. Stafford has, at times, had great defenses. He has, at times, had good, great, and even HOF caliber team mates on offense, but has he ever had a season where much of this was true at the same time?

And even if can find a season where the talent level is great, can we really consider any of the coaching staffs to be great, or even good? I'd say no.

Does this mean Stafford > Goff? Absolutely not. It means that I wish I could see what Stafford would do if we could magically go back in time to July 2023 and swap Stafford for Goff 1-for-1 so that I could see what Stafford would do. We know what Goff did, and it was pretty damn special. Would Stafford have done the same thing (or better)? Then that'll answer the question of if it was Stafford or just a bad team around him. Would Stafford have done worse? Then that'll answer the question of it it was Stafford or just a bad team around him.

This isn't supposed to be a Stafford vs. Goff debate. This is suppose to be a fantasy question to ultimately answer the nagging question: Was it Stafford or the Lions that make the 2010s just one more decades of despair for Lions' fans.

 

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

The question really boils down to this:

Do you think that the talent that Goff has around him right now (from coaching to front office to on the teammates) isn't better than the talent that Stafford every had around him for any one season? I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a season where this is true. Stafford has, at times, had great defenses. He has, at times, had good, great, and even HOF caliber team mates on offense, but has he ever had a season where much of this was true at the same time?

And even if can find a season where the talent level is great, can we really consider any of the coaching staffs to be great, or even good? I'd say no.

Does this mean Stafford > Goff? Absolutely not. It means that I wish I could see what Stafford would do if we could magically go back in time to July 2023 and swap Stafford for Goff 1-for-1 so that I could see what Stafford would do. We know what Goff did, and it was pretty damn special. Would Stafford have done the same thing (or better)? Then that'll answer the question of if it was Stafford or just a bad team around him. Would Stafford have done worse? Then that'll answer the question of it it was Stafford or just a bad team around him.

This isn't supposed to be a Stafford vs. Goff debate. This is suppose to be a fantasy question to ultimately answer the nagging question: Was it Stafford or the Lions that make the 2010s just one more decades of despair for Lions' fans.

 

2014 Stafford had Calvin Johnson, Golden Tate, Reggie Bush, Joique Bell, and Pettigrew who was a 1st round pick. Is that worse than what he had on the Rams? Johnson, Tate, prime Marvin Jones, Golladay, Hockenson, Pettigrew, **** even Ebron. 

Stafford rarely had good defenses on the Lions. 2014 was the exception. Most of the time they were in the late 20's. In 2020 the defense was historically bad. 

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

If you are going to be considered a great coach, you should be able to work with the QB you agreed was the franchise QB and gave a massive contract to. 

no doubt it's a fault - a blot on his resume for sure.

But If it works out for Lions I don't care if people keep thinking  McVay is a genius or not 🤷‍♂️

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

no doubt it's a fault - a blot on his resume for sure.

But If it works out for Lions I don't care if people keep thinking  McVay is a genius or not 🤷‍♂️

Goff got worse the more McVay got involved. The Rams QB coach was Zac Taylor. After 2018, Taylor became the head coach for the Bengals. McVay became the DeFacto QB coach in 2019 and Goff got worse. There were reports that McVay would run the hurry up so he could see how the defense lined up and would be in Goff's ear up until the mic cut out. The Lions actually have given Goff more responsibility. They don't micromanage like McVay. They coached Goff how to make pre-snap reads instead of benching him for John Wolford. 

[gehringer_2]

17 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

and would be in Goff's ear up until the mic cut out. The Lions actually have given Goff more responsibility. They don't micromanage like McVay. They coached Goff how to make pre-snap reads instead of benching him for John Wolford. 

This is interesting because  I've read that Goff's coach at Cal came to give Goff complete freedom to make all the calls at the line because he was best QB he had ever coached at reading the field. Pretty clear how a guy might come to dislike a coach who didn't trust him to do what he knew he could and vice versa a coach not like a player who maybe couldn't hide that he resented his 'coaching'/'interference'!

Edited April 23 by gehringer_2

[Dan Gilmore]

Again: Benched = bullcrap. He injured his throwing hand and sat a game. 

[Motown Bombers]

53 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said:

Again: Benched = bullcrap. He injured his throwing hand and sat a game. 

He literally came off the bench in the playoff game to take over for Wolford who got the start. 

[MichiganCardinal]

12 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

He literally came off the bench in the playoff game to take over for Wolford who got the start. 

I don't think you can detach his hand injury from his performance that year and in the playoffs though. Knowing what I know now about Goff, I don't think he was bad, I think he was injured. I think the media certainly played it off as him being just bad. And the Rams did him no favors in that regard, it's pretty clear that they thought he was just bad too.

As for the playoff game, I think McVay, knowing Goff was hurt and already thinking that Goff was just bad, put Wolford in over him, despite Goff saying he could play if needed. So then when they needed him, he went back in, performed poorly, and it just added to the narrative.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I don't think you can detach his hand injury from his performance that year and in the playoffs though. Knowing what I know now about Goff, I don't think he was bad, I think he was injured. I think the media certainly played it off as him being just bad. And the Rams did him no favors in that regard, it's pretty clear that they thought he was just bad too.

As for the playoff game, I think McVay, knowing Goff was hurt and already thinking that Goff was just bad, put Wolford in over him, despite Goff saying he could play if needed. So then when they needed him, he went back in, performed poorly, and it just added to the narrative.

It doesn't make sense. The injury was just cover for McVay to bench their expensive franchise QB. Do you think there would ever have been a situation where Stafford was healthy enough to be on the active roster and be the backup but not healthy enough to start over David Blough? An injured Goff is still better than Wolford. 

[MichiganCardinal]

28 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

It doesn't make sense. The injury was just cover for McVay to bench their expensive franchise QB. Do you think there would ever have been a situation where Stafford was healthy enough to be on the active roster and be the backup but not healthy enough to start over David Blough? An injured Goff is still better than Wolford. 

McVay has admitted he made mistakes when Goff was in LA. I don't think it makes a ton of sense, but I understand the logic behind putting an injured QB1 who can still run a limited offense of handoffs and misdirections over putting a QB4 Josh Johnson or Christian McCaffery in at QB like the 49ers had to do last year in the playoffs.

[Motown Bombers]

If Goff was healthy enough to be on the active roster, he was healthy enough to start over Wolford. He got benched and the injury was cover for McVay. 

[Shinzaki]

HOF TE Charlie Sanders deserves a mention as well

[Jimbo]

There is no way Goff or Stafford should be considered a top 3 Lion of all time.  If Goff wins 3 Superbowl's I still will not think he should be a top 3 Lion of all time.  This isn't to bash Goff or Stafford.  Both are very good to great QB's although they have not even been considered or will be considered a top 3 QB in any of their seasons in the NFL.  Now if we're clearly talking about fan favorites, then it is definitely a possibility with Goff because he is the QB.  For me, to be considered a top player of any franchise history you have to be considered one of the best at that position in that league (very least in a given year if not all time).  In the NFL, I don't think its easy to compare winning percentages to identify if a player is better or not because there are so many other factors.  So that being said, I do think Stafford is a better QB over all (although it's very close).