LOCKOUT '22: When will we see baseball again?

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Aren't non-roster players reporting to Spring Training on time?   

I thought I saw/heard something about non 40 man roster players still showing up to camp.  But I don’t know how reliable that (my memory or the source) is.

[casimir]

5 hours ago, chasfh said:

 

It still surprises me that MLB minimum salary is lower than NHL minimum salary.

[chasfh]

16 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Just split the difference and be done with it for goodness sake. 

The players might go for that, but the owners goal is to give up as close to nothing as possible, so that maintains the divide between them.

[casimir]

21 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The players might go for that, but the owners goal is to give up as close to nothing as possible, so that maintains the divide between them.

The owners might go for that, but the players goal is to get as much as possible, so that maintains the divide between them.

[chasfh]

I think it’s pretty clear by now that Baseball is not negotiating in good faith.

First of all, they are hardly countering Players’ proposals at all. The CBT, which acts as a de facto salary cap and is a key force that has reduced overall player comp as a percentage of total revenues, is a clear example of this. It was $210 million in 2021. The owners previous offer was 214-214-214-216-220 over the next five seasons. The players countered with 245 to 260 over the next five years, in order to open up the ability for teams to spend to win. The owners countered yesterday with 214-214-216-218-222. If Baseball had met Players halfway they might have agreed and moved on to the next item. Instead Baseball gave mere inches and had to know it was going to be seen as the nearly nothing it was. Of course Players rejected it: it would create the same drag on player comp that it was in the last CBA.

Secondly, the owners are using high-profile but low-impact changes as their proof to the fans that the players are being the obstructionists. Baseball is working toward making fans believe that the universal DH and expanded playoffs are going to end up in an economic windfall for players, when in reality such an increase would be concentrated with only a lucky few while the majority of their union base, the evolving majority of which are low-tenured minimum wagers, remain unaffected.

Of course, Baseball has most of the leverage because most owners’ businesses can withstand a canceled season, since their team is such a small part of their empire, while the game is the sole source of revenue for most players. So Baseball doesn’t really have to meet Players halfway.

I think most of us would like the see Players get a much fairer shake from the new CBA, but I think we’ve gotten to the point where we have to ask ourselves: would we be OK with seeing games canceled so players can be happier with their labor deal when they come back to the game? Or would we rather see games go on as scheduled, played by discontented players who felt forced to accept a suboptimal deal and continue to resent the game they play for the next several years? A lot of fans will smirk at the idea that “millionaires” could be such malcontents and end up siding with the owners on it, as planned. But this can be an ethical quandary for a conscientious fan who’d like to see the best of everything in the game accrue to all parties.

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

while the game is the sole source of revenue for most players. So Baseball doesn’t really have to meet Players halfway.

You'd hope the players have (should have!) seen this coming a mile away and even the MLB minimum is enough money that you could have put yourself in position to go a year without being paid.Of course there will be some players who are unprepared or have leveraged themselves with outside debts they can't support. Probably more than should have!

Most owner theoretically have more than enough resources to cover their non-playing overhead, but it might be complicated for some - they may not be able to just shift money into their ball club from some other entities without violating  responsibilities to other partners or stock holders etc. And you might have some owners who are just more the sportsman and want to play more than they care about their co-owners' last $.

 

[buddha]

99.9% of fans dont care about either of them.  millionaires and billionaires arguing.

[buddha]

29 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think it’s pretty clear by now that Baseball is not negotiating in good faith.

First of all, they are hardly countering Players’ proposals at all. The CBT, which acts as a de facto salary cap and is a key force that has reduced overall player comp as a percentage of total revenues, is a clear example of this. It was $210 million in 2021. The owners previous offer was 214-214-214-216-220 over the next five seasons. The players countered with 245 to 260 over the next five years, in order to open up the ability for teams to spend to win. The owners countered yesterday with 214-214-216-218-222. If Baseball had met Players halfway they might have agreed and moved on to the next item. Instead Baseball gave mere inches and had to know it was going to be seen as the nearly nothing it was. Of course Players rejected it: it would create the same drag on player comp that it was in the last CBA.

Secondly, the owners are using high-profile but low-impact changes as their proof to the fans that the players are being the obstructionists. Baseball is working toward making fans believe that the universal DH and expanded playoffs are going to end up in an economic windfall for players, when in reality such an increase would be concentrated with only a lucky few while the majority of their union base, the evolving majority of which are low-tenured minimum wagers, remain unaffected.

Of course, Baseball has most of the leverage because most owners’ businesses can withstand a canceled season, since their team is such a small part of their empire, while the game is the sole source of revenue for most players. So Baseball doesn’t really have to meet Players halfway.

I think most of us would like the see Players get a much fairer shake from the new CBA, but I think we’ve gotten to the point where we have to ask ourselves: would we be OK with seeing games canceled so players can be happier with their labor deal when they come back to the game? Or would we rather see games go on as scheduled, played by discontented players who felt forced to accept a suboptimal deal and continue to resent the game they play for the next several years? A lot of fans will smirk at the idea that “millionaires” could be such malcontents and end up siding with the owners on it, as planned. But this can be an ethical quandary for a conscientious fan who’d like to see the best of everything in the game accrue to all parties.

i know that when i go to a baseball game and think about how hard it is for issac paredes to survive on $630,000 a year, it just breaks my heart.  hopefully mlb helps him with his rent and gives him an extra stipend for food to supplement his need for wic money.  

we should set up a go fund me page for him to help him clothe his children during such troubling times.  its the least an ethical fan can do.

[gehringer_2]

the other thing is that it's not only the owners vs the players, but it's the fans vs the players, because every additional dollar spent on player compensation ultimately comes from the fans. It's easy to sit here and say the owners should up the cap because they can afford it, but that's not how it works. The owners are just the pass through, all the money that goes to the players ultimately comes from the fans because no franchise ever operated at a long term net loss.

Edited February 13, 2022 by gehringer_2

[casimir]

23 minutes ago, buddha said:

99.9% of fans dont care about either of them.  millionaires and billionaires arguing.

Come on, you have to pick a side.  Its either all in for one or all in for the other.  Its just like politics.  One side of the aisle is pure and saintly while the other side is the absolute worst of the worst.

[gehringer_2]

Just now, casimir said:

Come on, you have to pick a side.  Its either all in for one or all in for the other.  Its just like politics.  One side of the aisle is pure and saintly while the other side is the absolute worst of the worst.

what about one side is more evil but also more right?

[gehringer_2]

58 minutes ago, buddha said:

99.9% of fans dont care about either of them.  millionaires and billionaires arguing.

One of the local rags (edit: actually J Beck on the MLB site) had a story about Inge working as a volunteer coach for UM. You see that at first and you think, journeyman kind of ball player - can't the U put him on the payroll? Then you go to sportrac and see Brandon made $43M in his career. What's an assistant baseball coach salary to him? (or at least what should it be.....🤷‍♀️)

Edited February 13, 2022 by gehringer_2

[casimir]

43 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

what about one side is more evil but also more right?

Nah, we can't do that anymore.  Tik tok 'Murica won't allow that.

(But, yes, you have a very valid point.)

Edit to add:  This is not to say that in this specific case that one side is more evil but also more right.  Its just possible for nuance and layers to be involved in these cases.  Case in point is the timing of the negotiations.  Both sides are playing chicken with the other and its just going to screw over the fans and spring training economies.  The lockout occurred in, what, the beginning of December and neither side put forth any official offer until the last few weeks?  Come on, both sides are at fault here.

Edited February 13, 2022 by casimir

[Tiger337]

33 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

One of the local rags (edit: actually J Beck on the MLB site) had a story about Inge working as a volunteer coach for UM. You see that at first and you think, journeyman kind of ball player - can't the U put him on the payroll? Then you go to sportrac and see Brandon made $43M in his career. What's an assistant baseball coach salary to him? (or at least what should it be.....🤷‍♀️)

Third highest WAR for a Tigers thirdbaseman after Fryman and Kell.  

[casimir]

13 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Third highest WAR for a Tigers thirdbaseman after Fryman and Kell.  

Looking at Cabrera's stats to see where he might land, and I guess I am surprised he had only 2 seasons at 3B.  For some reason I thought he had a bit more time there.

But I don't know, given the dearth of 3B that the Tigers have had over the years, that 14.6 for those two season might still get him high on the list.

[Jim Cowan]

32 minutes ago, casimir said:

Looking at Cabrera's stats to see where he might land, and I guess I am surprised he had only 2 seasons at 3B.  For some reason I thought he had a bit more time there.

But I don't know, given the dearth of 3B that the Tigers have had over the years, that 14.6 for those two season might still get him high on the list.

I liked him at third.  If you hit the ball right to him he never missed, and he had a cannon arm.  That was good enough for me considering the ridiculous advantage you gained by having that bat at third base.

[Tiger337]

43 minutes ago, casimir said:

Looking at Cabrera's stats to see where he might land, and I guess I am surprised he had only 2 seasons at 3B.  For some reason I thought he had a bit more time there.

But I don't know, given the dearth of 3B that the Tigers have had over the years, that 14.6 for those two season might still get him high on the list.

I was looking at players that played the majority of time at third base and then I counted all seasons they played at any position.   Certainly if Cabrera played most of his time at third base, he would be #1 by a lot.   

Edited February 13, 2022 by Tiger337

[casimir]

25 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

I liked him at third.  If you hit the ball right to him he never missed, and he had a cannon arm.  That was good enough for me considering the ridiculous advantage you gained by having that bat at third base.

If they could've gotten some range out of SS, keeping Cabrera at 3B would have been fine.

Then again, there's more wear and tear at 3B than at 1B.

Then again, had he been the 3B for longer, it might have forced him to keep up with conditioning better.

There's an alternate universe out there where Cabrera is in shape and Hunter catches that ball in front of the Fenway bullpen.

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, casimir said:

Then again, had he been the 3B for longer, it might have forced him to keep up with conditioning better.

this. Maybe it makes a difference, maybe not, but I sure would have liked to know what a Cabrera that kept his weight down would have looked like at 36-38. less strain on the knee, the ankle, etc.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, casimir said:

Come on, you have to pick a side.  Its either all in for one or all in for the other.  Its just like politics.  One side of the aisle is pure and saintly while the other side is the absolute worst of the worst.

Interesting. I would never have thought you would have taken that position. 

[chasfh]

3 hours ago, casimir said:

The owners might go for that, but the players goal is to get as much as possible, so that maintains the divide between them.

We could say that technically, each side in every negotiation is out to get as much as possible. That doesn’t mean that each side’s position is equally reasonable for both parties coming into it.

[casimir]

17 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Interesting. I would never have thought you would have taken that position. 

What position am I taking?

[Tiger337]

53 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

this. Maybe it makes a difference, maybe not, but I sure would have liked to know what a Cabrera that kept his weight down would have looked like at 36-38. less strain on the knee, the ankle, etc.

He was headed for a Hank Aaron/ Frank Robinson career.  He turned out to have more like a Manny Ramirez type career (without the taint of roids). 

[oblong]

Just now, Tiger337 said:

He was headed for a Hank Aaron/ Frank Robinson career.  He turned out to have more like a Manny Ramirez type career (without the taint of roids). 

I started a spreadsheet where I was tracking him and Aaron at their respective ages and he was just a hair behind him until that time he tore his bicep in June.  Thats the thing so remarkable about Hank. The numbers he put up in his 30s.  

[Tenacious D]

Yes, Cabrera was going to be top 10 in many offensive categories until Avisail Garcia had an affair with Prince Fielder’s wife.  Unfortunate.