"Lions" at Broncos

[buddha]

1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

And yet I hadn't posted about it in over 15 hours until you came along and revived it. Then, you made an accusation that people were defending the Lions no matter what which is simply not true. 

1) you always take contrarian positions against people who criticize the lions.  fact.

2) i just saw the thread today, so that's why i commented today.

want to keep going for another 10 pages?  i know you need to have the final word.

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

1) you always take contrarian positions against people who criticize the lions.  fact.

2) i just saw the thread today, so that's why i commented today.

want to keep going for another 10 pages?  i know you need to have the final word.

My position is that Stafford, Johnson and Suh were great picks and their careers weren't ruined. Are you taking a different position? Do you think the Lions shouldn't have drafted them? Do you think the Lions forced them at gun point (Stafford and Johnson) to sign contract extensions? Were there different players the Lions should have drafted? 

It was over and done with. You came along and revived it and are bitching about it still going. 

[buddha]

i stated my position.  the fact that you didnt read it isnt my problem.

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

i stated my position.  the fact that you didnt read it isnt my problem.

I stated my position over 15 hours ago. It's a shame you didn't read it, accused me of being contrarian and defending the Lions no matter what, and continued a conversation you complain is still going. It was over and done with and you come along and lecture me on my posts. I'm dumbfounded that the position of Stafford, Johnson, and Suh being great picks, and good players who had great careers is contrarian. 

[RedRamage]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

the term "ruined" is open to interpretation.  the sentiment of making fun of the lions' organizational ineptitude by stating that you dont want players you like to come here because the organization will always be a failure should be a joke we can all share in.

That part I will agree with.

[buddha]

34 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

That part I will agree with.

what part do you disagree with?

[John_Brian_K]

18 hours ago, Hongbit said:

Is Matthew Stafford a Hall of Famer?

My answer is yes but the question probably should be are Matthew Stafford, Phillip Rivers, and Matt Ryan Hall of Famers.   They all have the same resume and if you take one then you have to take them all.    They will all get in.   Big Ben is very similar to these 3 but this is where his 2 Super Bowls separate him and have him already in as a lock. 

Depends on what he does the rest of the way...as of right now?  Hard to say...add a couple more good years in LA...maybe a few playoff wins...most likely.

[John_Brian_K]

18 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

If you start telling me all about all the hall of famers a team has had, I would ask you how much they won. If you start naming players and I say this one quit, this one demanded a trade and this other one also demanded a trade, I would definitely say that team has serious problems. Yes, those players are/were great but management was so horrible, it brought the whole team down. So while I would say these players had really good stats, I would also say the team stinks for not being able to build around them. Last night, I watched Matthew Stafford throw some very long and accurate passes. Also some shorter passes with just the right touch. I had forgotten how good he really is. 12 years of him and the Lions couldn't win? That's on the organization, not the player. And for many of these players, money is there no matter what team they're on. Yeah, take the Lions money until there's a chance to move on while there's something left in the tank. I just don't feel that we're headed in the right direction, again. Not impressed with Campbell's mistakes, over and over. But just hang on. We have a whole new management team in place. How many times do we have to hear that before we stop believing it?

I love how people point to Stafford record against GOOD teams as some sort of failure on his part...one man...not solely responsible when they win and not solely responsible when they lose...one guy that does what he can and was well above average...then they say "he is no Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady"...well duuuh

[RedRamage]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

what part do you disagree with?

"the lions left hall of famers' careers incomplete because they have always failed to hire a management team that could bring them sustained organizational success.  period."

Incomplete =/= ruined. Further, incomplete isn't well defined anymore than "ruined" is.  You seem to be arguing that a player can only have a complete career if it included x, y, and/or z.  That seems like a subjective opinion to me.

"realizing the lions have left talented players' careers unfulfilled in terms of organizational success is not disputable."

This is at least somewhat better defined.  Here you seem to be saying that a player's career will not be fulfilled unless the team has success.  But while it's better defined, it's still ambiguous. What is organizational success? Does it mean winning a SB? Would multiple conference championships be enough? Not that the Lions have done either, but the point is that it's still not very well defined. Further, it's still subjective. It's your opinion that a player's career is unfulfilled with out this success. A player who sets multiple individual records, who has had some amazing highlight moments, who earns a tremendous amount of money and is a no-doubt HOF caliber player could very easily consider his career a fulfilling and accomplished career, even without a ring.

Of course, all this said, if the intention was only to make a joke about a promising player have to suffer in Detroit, then I'm being super nitpicky about a throw-away one liner and that's dumb of me. (For the record I'd like to point out that I only entered the discussion after the nitpicky part already started) But while it may be silly of me to be nitpicky about a joke, it also is NOT defending the Lions organization.

[gehringer_2]

Maybe the most concrete case to take would be Barry. It not for Barry's unhappiness with the Lions he might have keep playing and set a lot more records that would have stood longer than he did. I think that is a pretty safe argument. So in this case you have direct logic from the disfunction in the Lions' org to a career that ended up less than it might have been. That said, no-one forced Barry to stay with the Lions. Though you might make the narrower argument that it was specifically Lions' disfunction that got worse after he was already locked into his last contract. Again, he could have demanded a trade. But the counter arg would be that there was a lot of weird psycho-drama between Barry and his father about his career and accomplishments, so there may non-Lions related reasons for some part of his somewhat inscrutable decision making.

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Maybe the most concrete case to take would be Barry. It not for Barry's unhappiness with the Lions he might have keep playing and set a lot more records that would have stood longer than he did. I think that is a pretty safe argument. So in this case you have direct logic from the disfunction in the Lions' org to a career that ended up less than it might have been. That said, no-one forced Barry to stay with the Lions. Though you might make the narrower argument that it was specifically Lions' disfunction that got worse after he was already locked into his last contract. Again, he could have demanded a trade. But the counter arg would be that there was a lot of weird psycho-drama between Barry and his father about his career and accomplishments, so there may non-Lions related reasons for some part of his somewhat inscrutable decision making.

Barry Sanders chose to sign a long term extension with the Lions. He chose to walk away from setting the all time rushing record. Barry Sanders is still regarded as one of the greatest running backs of all time so I would hardly say his career was ruined. 

Andrew Luck chose to retire early. Did the Colts ruin his career? 

 

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Barry Sanders chose to sign a long term extension with the Lions. He chose to walk away from setting the all time rushing record. Barry Sanders is still regarded as one of the greatest running backs of all time so I would hardly say his career was ruined. 

Andrew Luck chose to retire early. Did the Colts ruin his career? 

 

Please consider the words actually written in your responses: " a career that ended up less than it might have been". The other part of your objection is already addressed in the post.

Edited December 15, 2021 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Did the Colts ruin his career?

whether and why any other player left the game early has no direct bearing on Lions' history.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

Please consdier the words actually written in your responses: " a career that ended up less than it might have been"

Right and that's because Barry Sanders walked away and not because the Lions forced him into retirement or ruined his career. He walked away only 2 years after signing a 6 year contract and he signed that contract with Bobby Ross so he can't even blame Ross. 

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Right and that's because Barry Sanders walked away and not because the Lions forced him into retirement or ruined his career. He walked away only 2 years after signing a 6 year contract and he signed that contract with Bobby Ross so he can't even blame Ross. 

LOL - so he obviously intended at that point to play for 6 yrs, not two.

[MichiganCardinal]

I feel like too much of this talk of the Lions ruining careers or trajectories is based around this unconscious belief that there is some "curse" on the team that prevents them from winning. I don't believe in that. If placed in a perfect vacuum, I think the Lions would have just as much chance of winning a Super Bowl as any other team in the NFL over the course of 10-20 years.

That said, with the knowledge that the NFL is not a vacuum, I do believe there are common elements that have been in place for much of the last 50 years (William Clay Ford, namely) that have led the team to consistently waver between bad and awful, and to not even have the progression to the mean that you would expect any given team to have.

I don't think it is fair though to put that on the feet of Sheila for her father's ineptitude. The dataset of what we can use to attribute to present failure can only go so far as the most distant element. Sheila has only been owner since June 2020. Why would it be fair to call her a perpetual loser, just because of her maiden name? She had nothing to do with any of the long line of failed endeavors to make this team into the laughing stock it is. Maybe I'm a fool for believing in her, but she seems to care a lot more than her dad or mom did about the future success of the team, and she seems to be doing the right things.

As it relates to the next 1st overall pick taken by the Lions, I don't think the vast majority of players pay any mind to history, like WCF is. I think they see going to any losing franchise, whether the Lions, Jaguars, Browns, or otherwise as their opportunity to be a franchise player in the NFL. They also see it as a chance, if they can help turn it around, to be an absolute hero in a city. If you go to the Cubs and are the leader of the team that wins their first World Series in a century, they're building statues. If you go to the Yankees and do it, it's still awesome, but you're also just the most recent in a long line. And worst case, if you think the team is holding you back from your fullest potential as a player or in the league generally, you leave after your rookie contract.

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

LOL - so he obviously intended at that point to play for 6 yrs, not two.

Please consdier (sic) the words actually written in your responses: "Barry Sanders walked away and not because the Lions forced him into retirement or ruined his career."

Barry Sanders made the choice to leave. The Lions did not force him out. If he thinks his career is unfulfilled and wanted to play longer, he should have A) never signed the extension with the Lions in the first place, B) honored his contract and continue to play for the Lions, or C) request a trade from the Lions. I have no idea if he actually did request a trade or if Ross would have granted it. 

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I feel like too much of this talk of the Lions ruining careers or trajectories is based around this unconscious belief that there is some "curse" on the team that prevents them from winning. I don't believe in that. If placed in a perfect vacuum, I think the Lions would have just as much chance of winning a Super Bowl as any other team in the NFL over the course of 10-20 years.

That said, with the knowledge that the NFL is not a vacuum, I do believe there are common elements that have been in place for much of the last 50 years (William Clay Ford, namely) that have led the team to consistently waver between bad and awful, and to not even have the progression to the mean that you would expect any given team to have.

I don't think it is fair though to put that on the feet of Sheila for her father's ineptitude. The dataset of what we can use to attribute to present failure can only go so far as the most distant element. Sheila has only been owner since June 2020. Why would it be fair to call her a perpetual loser, just because of her maiden name? She had nothing to do with any of the long line of failed endeavors to make this team into the laughing stock it is. Maybe I'm a fool for believing in her, but she seems to care a lot more than her dad or mom did about the future success of the team, and she seems to be doing the right things.

As it relates to the next 1st overall pick taken by the Lions, I don't think the vast majority of players pay any mind to history, like WCF is. I think they see going to any losing franchise, whether the Lions, Jaguars, Browns, or otherwise as their opportunity to be a franchise player in the NFL. They also see it as a chance, if they can help turn it around, to be an absolute hero in a city. If you go to the Cubs and are the leader of the team that wins their first World Series in a century, they're building statues. If you go to the Yankees and do it, it's still awesome, but you're also just the most recent in a long line. And worst case, if you think the team is holding you back from your fullest potential as a player or in the league generally, you leave after your rookie contract.

This is all true though I would offer one caveat. When a player like Calvin Johnson bad mouths not only the recent FO but can't say anything good about the current either, that may affect how other players look at the prospect of playing for the Lions. Of course the degree depends on what kind of personal respect Calvin commanded among other players.

[Sports_Freak]

Meh...you guys argue too much. 😅😅

[Motown Bombers]

16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

This is all true though I would offer one caveat. When a player like Calvin Johnson bad mouths not only the recent FO but can't say anything good about the current either, that may affect how other players look at the prospect of playing for the Lions. Of course the degree depends on what kind of personal respect Calvin commanded among other players.

Calvin Johnson wants the Lions to do something that is currently against NFL rules and he's salty they cannot and won't do it. I really don't think it has any impact on the Lions attracting or retaining free agents. The Lions were able to sign Ragnow and Okwara to extensions and probably could have signed Golladay if they really wanted him. 

[MichiganCardinal]

15 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

This is all true though I would offer one caveat. When a player like Calvin Johnson bad mouths not only the recent FO but can't say anything good about the current either, that may affect how other players look at the prospect of playing for the Lions. Of course the degree depends on what kind of personal respect Calvin commanded among other players.

I agree, though I think Calvin's gripe is unique, and by this point there are definitely two sides to that story (for those who care to hear the current owners' side).

I also think Calvin will be magically back in good graces with the team if they manage to start winning something... That's a bit of a separate topic from this though.

[Motown Bombers]

I can see it now. Sewell is going to develop into one of the best LT ever, he'll sign the largest contract ever given to an offensive lineman, and then he'll retire at age 30 and fight with the Lions for his signing bonus while people blame the Lions for ruining his hall of fame career with his own personal choices. 

[John_Brian_K]

49 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I feel like too much of this talk of the Lions ruining careers or trajectories is based around this unconscious belief that there is some "curse" on the team that prevents them from winning. I don't believe in that. If placed in a perfect vacuum, I think the Lions would have just as much chance of winning a Super Bowl as any other team in the NFL over the course of 10-20 years.

That said, with the knowledge that the NFL is not a vacuum, I do believe there are common elements that have been in place for much of the last 50 years (William Clay Ford, namely) that have led the team to consistently waver between bad and awful, and to not even have the progression to the mean that you would expect any given team to have.

I don't think it is fair though to put that on the feet of Sheila for her father's ineptitude. The dataset of what we can use to attribute to present failure can only go so far as the most distant element. Sheila has only been owner since June 2020. Why would it be fair to call her a perpetual loser, just because of her maiden name? She had nothing to do with any of the long line of failed endeavors to make this team into the laughing stock it is. Maybe I'm a fool for believing in her, but she seems to care a lot more than her dad or mom did about the future success of the team, and she seems to be doing the right things.

As it relates to the next 1st overall pick taken by the Lions, I don't think the vast majority of players pay any mind to history, like WCF is. I think they see going to any losing franchise, whether the Lions, Jaguars, Browns, or otherwise as their opportunity to be a franchise player in the NFL. They also see it as a chance, if they can help turn it around, to be an absolute hero in a city. If you go to the Cubs and are the leader of the team that wins their first World Series in a century, they're building statues. If you go to the Yankees and do it, it's still awesome, but you're also just the most recent in a long line. And worst case, if you think the team is holding you back from your fullest potential as a player or in the league generally, you leave after your rookie contract.

I totally disagree with this.  There are football towns and there is Detroit.  We have a decent fan base considering how god awful they have been for 60 years, but real solid football towns create a culture of wining...get this, by actually winning.  Doing what it takes to win.  Also a lot of those real football towns are not 4 sport towns...so football just naturally means more to them...that goes for ownership as well.  I know most people like to take the lazy cliche and say that the owners of teams treat the team like a throw away or some kind of fancy hobby, but believe it or not...winning creates more money and the owners like making money so they naturally do what it takes to win.  For some people/owners...winning just means more..the Fords do not really care about it...at least they do not appear to care or you would have to have a couple playoff wins in 60 years...

The Bobby Lane curse ended like 13 years ago...there is no curse...there has just been poor decision after poor decision from top to bottom here which is why most people point to ownership because it is the only constant...I mean honestly how bad do you have to be in order to not get lucky at least ONCE in 60 years?

[John_Brian_K]

15 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I can see it now. Sewell is going to develop into one of the best LT ever, he'll sign the largest contract ever given to an offensive lineman, and then he'll retire at age 30 and fight with the Lions for his signing bonus while people blame the Lions for ruining his hall of fame career with his own personal choices. 

I never knew how much of a Lions slappy you were.  It is weird how much you deny it though....just own it.  Nothing wrong with it...

[Motown Bombers]

5 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

I never knew how much of a Lions slappy you were.  It is weird how much you deny it though....just own it.  Nothing wrong with it...

So now joking about how the Lions have had great players retire early makes me a Lions slappy?