2025 Detroit Tigers General Discussion Thread

[Edman85]

Part of me wonders what affect that Athletic report has had on this collapse. I know Menzin was the only baseball ops person, but maybe there was some additional fallout and strife behind the scenes after that article that has affected enough things on the periphery to add to the spiral.

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, Edman85 said:

Part of me wonders what affect that Athletic report has had on this collapse. I know Menzin was the only baseball ops person, but maybe there was some additional fallout and strife behind the scenes after that article that has affected enough things on the periphery to add to the spiral.

Perhaps, it was an indication that the organization does not treat people well in general and that report brought things to light and got people talking.  I am not saying I think that's true.  The easiest safest explanation for a slump is random variation.  I'm just throwing out the possibility that's is something more.  

[monkeytargets39]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I've always wondered what brought him back to Detroit. Maybe the Tigers just made the best offer and there is nothing more to read into it.

I assumed it was both the offer and that he knew the staff and performed well with them last year.  He didn’t help himself with the top teams by not having a good WS, plus LA signed everyone under the sun last offseason.

[Edman85]

5 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Perhaps, it was an indication that the organization does not treat people well in general and that report brought things to light and got people talking.  I am not saying I think that's true.  The easiest safest explanation for a slump is random variation.  I'm just throwing out the possibility that's is something more.  

If you have an organization that relies on teamwork and personalities maximizing performance, the slightest bit of distrust could permeate.

I also suspect 6 all star bids also may have added some ego to the mix that wasn't there.

Final theory: the league caught up to some of the pitch design things that Fetter and Co. had been doing.

[Tiger337]

Just now, Edman85 said:

If you have an organization that relies on teamwork and personalities maximizing performance, the slightest bit of distrust could permeate.

I also suspect 6 all star bids also may have added some ego to the mix that wasn't there.

Final theory: the league caught up to some of the pitch design things that Fetter and Co. had been doing.

The last one makes a lot of sense.  

[monkeytargets39]

I’d just like to say one thing:

 

With the ABS system going into use next year— I expect Spencer Torkelsons stats to rise dramatically.  

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Final theory: the league caught up to some of the pitch design things that Fetter and Co. had been doing.

 

6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The last one makes a lot of sense.  

In the sense that other teams are doing the same thing so Tiger hitters are having more trouble, or in the sense that what the Tigers are doing isn't as effective and other teams are now hitting them better?  I'd agree with the first, but the second is more complicated. Using the tech to teach pitchers how get their pitches to move works - end of story there. Hitters don't seem to be able to get better with familiarity or more practice against good movement - and the lack of impact of Trajekt on league offense seems to prove that.  But given that the Tiger pitching staff's problem this year seems to center mostly around too many walks, it may be that they have just gone past optimum on their pitch designs to where guys are trying to throw designer pitches they can't command well enough to keep the walks in check.

 

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, monkeytargets39 said:

I’d just like to say one thing:

 

With the ABS system going into use next year— I expect Spencer Torkelsons stats to rise dramatically.  

yup. And I think it will be a boost for most RHB. That extra ball width/inconsistency that so many umps regularly give RH slider pitchers is murder on RHH.

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

 

In the sense that other teams are doing the same thing so Tiger hitters are having more trouble, or in the sense that what the Tigers are doing isn't as effective and other teams are now hitting them better?  I'd agree with the first, but the second is more complicated. Using the tech to teach pitchers how get their pitches to move works - end of story there. Hitters don't seem to be able to get better with familiarity or more practice against good movement - and the lack of impact of Trajekt on league offense seems to prove that.  But given that the Tiger pitching staff's problem this year seems to center mostly around too many walks, it may be that they have just gone past optimum on their pitch designs to where guys are trying to throw designer pitches they can't command well enough to keep the walks in check.

 

I'm thinking more about sequencing or identifying player tendencies.  If they are using tech to learn player tendencies and they pitch that way too predictably, I can see where the opposition might catch up to that by changing their tendencies.  

[Edman85]

Kinetrax or similar technologies make it easier to learn how to face off against certain pitch shapes.

[monkeytargets39]

Without actually looking at the data, it seems as though other teams have done a much better job of positioning their defense against us over the last two months, whereas that seems to have regressed for us from what it was.

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I'm thinking more about sequencing or identifying player tendencies.  If they are using tech to learn player tendencies and they pitch that way too predictably, I can see where the opposition might catch up to that by changing their tendencies.  

I agree  - I think teams have caught on to the need to hit and pitch against their tendencies when facing the Tigers. I don't think that's the reason they've slumped suddenly though. While it's possible, I can't think of a good explanation that all the opposing teams would have suddenly changed their approach to Detroit in unison 2/3 of the way through the season - I think they've been adjusting that in regard ever since this season began and the Tigers were still winning anyway.

[gehringer_2]

26 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Kinetrax or similar technologies make it easier to learn how to face off against certain pitch shapes.

this is something I have found really intriguing. So in all the years I'd watched baseball "pretech" there was always this debate about using live pitchers in batting practice - was it worth it,  and whether a more realistic batting practice setup would improve hitters etc. So when the hi-tech pitching machines appeared that gave hitters the chance to stand in and practice as much as they wanted against what ever spin and velocity they could dial in, I figured there *might* be a potential for a revolution in offense across the league. But not much discernible has actually happened, things all seem to be within the usual norms. I think that argues that hitters already have/had ways to get in as much useful work as they could, and that good pitching will remain hard to hit. It remains more a matter of not knowing or being able to recognize what is coming even if you have the chance to practice against it. So for batters the practice tech hasn't been near the revolution that letting a pitcher actually practice and refine his exact pitch physics pitch by pitch has been.

Edited Tuesday at 08:12 PM by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

There might well be something to the idea that the rest of the league is simply catching up to Tigers' pitching, particularly the bullpen. So many of last year's better performers were new to the league, so it might also be a matter of the league getting more looks at them the next go around.

[theroundsquare]

19 minutes ago, monkeytargets39 said:

Without actually looking at the data, it seems as though other teams have done a much better job of positioning their defense against us over the last two months, whereas that seems to have regressed for us from what it was.

this is my observation, too, though it is anecdotal for me as well