Cleanup in Aisle Lunatic (h/t romad1)

[buddha]

37 minutes ago, oblong said:

What's the solution with CRT?  Just not talk about race anymore?  Pretend our history until the 1960's didn't happen with regard to how we treated black people?  Because that's what they want us to do.  Act like slaves enjoyed working for their master and that things were separate but equal and thats the way it's supposed to be because Bible.

 

but what youre saying is kind of like what fox news is saying, just from the opposite side.  republicans have blown it up to be something its not, but so does the "what are we supposed to do, ignore slavery and apartheid in america" yelling does the same thing.  reasoned people dont want to do either.  There should be a fair degree of nuance involved and as we all know, nuance gets thrown out the door when it comes to social media trying to get clicks ("lincoln cancelled!" "republicans dont want to teach slavery!").

its perfectly fair to teach that america has a racial based social system that has brutalized black americans for centuries, while also teaching that america is the great social experiment with democracy and is one of the most open and successful countries for its citizens the world has ever seen.

[buddha]

where our kids go its all about civil rights.  its all they learn about.  every book my 5th grader read was about a "person of color" written by a person of color.  every book is about overcoming racism in some form.  my kid didnt learn about presidents, she learned about martin luther king and ruby bridges and rosa parks.  she doesnt learn about the declaration of independence, she learns about the civil rights act.  washington isnt the first president, he's a slaveholder.  

all of which are true.  and its a different perspective from which to view american history.

do they teach "crt"?  no, but they do the bastardized version of it for grade school kids: "black and brown kids are constantly discriminated against by white people."  "crt" is a theory about societal discrimination that requires thoughtful debate, you get the HR friendly simplistic stuff fallout from that in grade school and middle school.

i think there are plusses to teaching it that way and minuses.  like everything else.  but it certainly "exists" in schools, even if it doesnt exist to the extent tucker carlson would have you believe.

[Motown Bombers]

LOL nuance with Trumpers. Good luck winning on nuance. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

15 minutes ago, buddha said:

but what youre saying is kind of like what fox news is saying, just from the opposite side.  republicans have blown it up to be something its not, but so does the "what are we supposed to do, ignore slavery and apartheid in america" yelling does the same thing.  reasoned people dont want to do either.  There should be a fair degree of nuance involved and as we all know, nuance gets thrown out the door when it comes to social media trying to get clicks ("lincoln cancelled!" "republicans dont want to teach slavery!").

its perfectly fair to teach that america has a racial based social system that has brutalized black americans for centuries, while also teaching that america is the great social experiment with democracy and is one of the most open and successful countries for its citizens the world has ever seen.

You can't have nuance with people who barely have high school education and refuse and reject any notion of learning or intellectual stimulation. You also can't have nuance with 70 year old people like my dad whose racism and intolerance have been ingrained in him/them for 55-60+ years. Nuance escapes people like that and some of them just don't have the intellectual heft to think critically or move beyond bumper sticker politics and slogans designed to make them angry and afraid.

What Democrats need to do is frame social issues back to economics, quality of life, and safety and security of the general public. Win people over with bread and butter values about making a fair economy, rewarding hard work with good-wages and an equitable tax code, keeping people safe while ensuring the system of justice is equitable, etc. A melding together of both the Barack Obama, Joe Biden, and Bernie Sanders approaches to politics. The focus on values over specific ideas of Obama, the working-class zeal of a Joe Biden, and the Democrats will always be on your side kind of toughness and fight of a Bernie Sanders. You get the hopeful, optimistic nature of an Obama and Biden blended with the willingness to fightback when you're kicked and tenacity of a Bernie Sanders. There will always be a block of people wo will continue to watch Fox and OAN or read Brietbart and never go along. Let them do what they are going to do and win everyone else in the middle or anyone capable of any level of introspection or critical thought back over.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Mr.TaterSalad

[oblong]

36 minutes ago, buddha said:

where our kids go its all about civil rights.  its all they learn about.  every book my 5th grader read was about a "person of color" written by a person of color.  every book is about overcoming racism in some form.  my kid didnt learn about presidents, she learned about martin luther king and ruby bridges and rosa parks.  she doesnt learn about the declaration of independence, she learns about the civil rights act.  washington isnt the first president, he's a slaveholder.  

all of which are true.  and its a different perspective from which to view american history.

do they teach "crt"?  no, but they do the bastardized version of it for grade school kids: "black and brown kids are constantly discriminated against by white people."  "crt" is a theory about societal discrimination that requires thoughtful debate, you get the HR friendly simplistic stuff fallout from that in grade school and middle school.

i think there are plusses to teaching it that way and minuses.  like everything else.  but it certainly "exists" in schools, even if it doesnt exist to the extent tucker carlson would have you believe.

Given the short amount of time we have to teach history which is more important?   Ruby Ridges is 66 years old.  George Washington is 289 years old.  Which is more relevant to today's world?

 

[buddha]

10 minutes ago, oblong said:

Given the short amount of time we have to teach history which is more important?   Ruby Ridges is 66 years old.  George Washington is 289 years old.  Which is more relevant to today's world?

 

i would argue that george washington is more important, but i understand your point.

i mean, we can argue that the civil rights act is basically a new us constitution...lol.

[Edman85]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

where our kids go its all about civil rights.  its all they learn about.  every book my 5th grader read was about a "person of color" written by a person of color.  every book is about overcoming racism in some form.  my kid didnt learn about presidents, she learned about martin luther king and ruby bridges and rosa parks.  she doesnt learn about the declaration of independence, she learns about the civil rights act.  washington isnt the first president, he's a slaveholder.  

all of which are true.  and its a different perspective from which to view american history.

do they teach "crt"?  no, but they do the bastardized version of it for grade school kids: "black and brown kids are constantly discriminated against by white people."  "crt" is a theory about societal discrimination that requires thoughtful debate, you get the HR friendly simplistic stuff fallout from that in grade school and middle school.

i think there are plusses to teaching it that way and minuses.  like everything else.  but it certainly "exists" in schools, even if it doesnt exist to the extent tucker carlson would have you believe.

On the other hand in rural Ohio, I felt like aside from the Civil War/slavery and MLK Jr., racial issues were a footnote.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Edman85

[buddha]

Just now, Edman85 said:

On the other hand in rural Ohio, I felt like aside from the Civil War/slavery and MLK Jr., racial issues were a footnote.

how long ago?

and part of this is a correction.  you have people - black people - who were locked out of the educational system for the most part.  now those people's voices are being heard and - unsurprisingly - they have a different take on american history.  its a good thing that those voices are being heard.

but that doesnt mean it should go completely the other way either.  how far you view that correction is up to you.  ymmv.

honestly, when i was going to school in detroit there was a lot of focus on civil rights and slavery.  and hey, as the only white kid, i got to play abraham lincoln every year in the school play!

[ewsieg]

CRT is just another example of every divide we've ever seen in this country.  

For this issue, Republicans worry about the slippery slide of what it can become and democrats try and point out what it is today and why it shouldn't be feared.  Pick any issue, one side is on the slippery slide, the other calls it nonsense.

Right now the media and left narrative of CRT is that the right has mislabeled it.  While I would deem that true, the democrats can't see any nuance either, as it's their far left end that defines it the same way that the right worries it'll be. 

There are absolutely progressives out there that think everything should be taught through the lens of race and even if there aren't obvious connotations on an issue and race, well, you better deep dive into it until you can identify one.

[Edman85]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

how long ago?

and part of this is a correction.  you have people - black people - who were locked out of the educational system for the most part.  now those people's voices are being heard and - unsurprisingly - they have a different take on american history.  its a good thing that those voices are being heard.

but that doesnt mean it should go completely the other way either.  how far you view that correction is up to you.  ymmv.

honestly, when i was going to school in detroit there was a lot of focus on civil rights and slavery.  and hey, as the only white kid, i got to play abraham lincoln every year in the school play!

20 years ago.

[ewsieg]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

how long ago?

and part of this is a correction.  you have people - black people - who were locked out of the educational system for the most part.  now those people's voices are being heard and - unsurprisingly - they have a different take on american history.  its a good thing that those voices are being heard.

but that doesnt mean it should go completely the other way either.  how far you view that correction is up to you.  ymmv.

honestly, when i was going to school in detroit there was a lot of focus on civil rights and slavery.  and hey, as the only white kid, i got to play abraham lincoln every year in the school play!

Just to think, at one point that probably earned you the respect of your peers, now you might get cancelled by their kids white friends.  If you have any plans for running for office, might want to do that quickly as portraying Abe might be equivalent to blackface in just a few years.

[buddha]

29 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Just to think, at one point that probably earned you the respect of your peers, now you might get cancelled by their kids white friends.  If you have any plans for running for office, might want to do that quickly as portraying Abe might be equivalent to blackface in just a few years.

i'm pretty sure most folks here might take issue with the idea of me getting any respect from my peers...

[Mr.TaterSalad]

I was taught in school during the 90's and 2000's that Columbus was a good dude and he sailed the ocean blue in 1492 on the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria and was apart of the North American discovery. I think an honest teaching of Columbus would teach you that he was a thug, thief, rapist, and murderer. I was also never taught that, beyond the indigenous people, it was actually the Vikings and Nordics who discovered North America and not Columbus. They were in Canada long before Columbus came over. That isn't CRT or teaching through the lens of race, those are just facts about Columbus and who he was. If some people can't handle history that is their problem.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Mr.TaterSalad

[The Ronz]

When did kids start paying attention in school? Is this something new? I paid no attention in school and neither did most of the kids I knew. It didn’t matter if it was ABC or CRT.

[ewsieg]

80's and 90's here in rural Michigan.  In the 80's, elementary years, it was all "in 1492, columbus sailed the ocean blue..."

In the 90's, a little more in depth, but I don't remember that much focus.  I was taught he 'found' it in error as he was trying to go further south for a direct route to Asia and while he wasn't the first to reach this continent, his route led to the eventual colonization.  The only negative thing I remember was him bringing diseases to the new world.

And nothing against learning/knowing your history on someone.  But when right leaning folks are concerned about CRT, they are talking about grade school/high school.  You're going to need to get rid of every other class and just have kids taking 6 history classes each day if you want to go research paper deep on every historical figure so we can truly know what's in their hearts and not just what made them historical.

 

[Motown Bombers]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

how long ago?

and part of this is a correction.  you have people - black people - who were locked out of the educational system for the most part.  now those people's voices are being heard and - unsurprisingly - they have a different take on american history.  its a good thing that those voices are being heard.

but that doesnt mean it should go completely the other way either.  how far you view that correction is up to you.  ymmv.

honestly, when i was going to school in detroit there was a lot of focus on civil rights and slavery.  and hey, as the only white kid, i got to play abraham lincoln every year in the school play!

I got death threats as a white kid if I showed up to Detroit public schools. It's the reason I went to Catholic schools. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Motown Bombers

[romad1]

Trump told RNC chair he was leaving GOP to create new party, says new book - ABC News

Been waiting for this one to come out.   Lots of quasi nevertrumps citing this coming story. 

[romad1]

2 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Trump told RNC chair he was leaving GOP to create new party, says new book - ABC News

Been waiting for this one to come out.   Lots of quasi nevertrumps citing this coming story. 

Quote

 

While Trump, "morose in defeat and eager for revenge, plotted the destruction of the Republican Party ... the RNC played hardball," according to the book.

"We told them there were a lot of things they still depended on the RNC for, and that if this were to move forward, all of it would go away," an RNC official told Karl.

According to the book, "McDaniel and her leadership team made it clear that if Trump left, the party would immediately stop paying legal bills incurred during post-election challenges."

"But, more significant, the RNC threatened to render Trump's most valuable political asset worthless," Karl writes, referring to "the campaign's list of the email addresses of forty million Trump supporters."

"It's a list Trump had used to generate money by renting it to candidates at a steep cost," says the book. "The list generated so much money that party officials estimated that it was worth about $100 million."

Five days after revealing plans that could have destroyed his own political party on that last flight aboard Air Force One, Karl writes, Trump backed down, saying he would remain a Republican after all.

 

 

[gehringer_2]

21 minutes ago, romad1 said:

 

always about $$$ - esp with Trump

[CMRivdogs]

The Democratic candidate for Governor in Virginia conceded the election the morning after. The current Gov has had the Gov Elect in for lunch.

Meanwhile, the Trumpublican candidate for governor in NJ has decided to wait until he is absolutely positive that the election was fair and has not issued a formal concession. The vote margin in both states is similar.

What do you think the Fox and Friends Media would say if T Mac had done something similar?

[gehringer_2]

35 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I got death threats as a white kid if I showed up to Detroit public schools. It's the reason I went to Catholic schools. 

 

28 minutes ago, romad1 said:

 

the thing is the GOP shouldn't be fooled about what they bought. They may have coerced Trump to stay on board, but if he has decided his love is lost for the GOP, then he is doing no more than biding his time until he has wrung them dry for what is useful to him, and he will yet throw them overboard. With Trump you can count on it being the scorpion and the frog writ large.

[1984Echoes]

4 hours ago, oblong said:

What's the solution with CRT?  Just not talk about race anymore?  Pretend our history until the 1960's didn't happen with regard to how we treated black people?  Because that's what they want us to do.  Act like slaves enjoyed working for their master and that things were separate but equal and thats the way it's supposed to be because Bible.

Screw that.

Although... I didn't need CRT myself, in the 70's... because I did my own research. Underground railroad. Harriet Tubman. Nat Turner. Abolitionist. Frederick Douglass. John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry (went there). Roots. Alex Haley. The Emancipation Proclamation. Approximately 12 million imported into the Americas (starting mainly in Jamaica and other Caribbean islands) with an estimated 2 million dead from the Africa-to-Americas passage alone. 

It's not hard to have a F'ing conscience about this but, for whatever reason, a large percentage of white America maintains a F.U., Hate U attitude that exceeds anywhere else on the planet.

(Maybe? Exists in Europe but I believe at a much, much lower level... Higher percentages the more North/ northeastern Europe you go (Germany/ Poland/ Russia)).

[1984Echoes]

15 hours ago, buddha said:

i think you will have an equal or more difficult time convincing asian and hispanic immigrants that their tax dollars are to go to black people than it will be to convince white people.

 

Here, I'll give a Republican solution:

Instead of "reparations", create an "inner city revival" program:

Microlending. It's successful in 3rd world countries. It doesn't cost tax payer dollars. It creates small businesses by the thousands as individual borrowers create these businesses. It injects large amounts of funds into inner cities, creating businesses, wealth, and inner-city economic multipliers as that wealth is further spent... "revival". And if it is for minorities, then it can equally benefit Asians, Blacks, Hispanics.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I was taught in school during the 90's and 2000's that Columbus was a good dude and he sailed the ocean blue in 1492 on the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria and was apart of the North American discovery. I think an honest teaching of Columbus would teach you that he was a thug, thief, rapist, and murderer. I was also never taught that, beyond the indigenous people, it was actually the Vikings and Nordics who discovered North America and not Columbus. They were in Canada long before Columbus came over. That isn't CRT or teaching through the lens of race, those are just facts about Columbus and who he was. If some people can't handle history that is their problem.

IIRC back in the 60's we covered Columbus moderately heroicly as an explorer but the point was made that the Spanish killed and enslaved the locals. We also read Frederick Douglass and John Howard Griffin. And this was before the bottom fell out and the while residential exodus began.

[1984Echoes]

24 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

always about $$$ - esp with Trump

Money-grubbing deuchebag.