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Week Six: BYE


MichiganCardinal

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Just now, MichiganCardinal said:

I think so. It won’t be official until he’s cut this off-season but I’m willing to write him off.

Did Levi have back concerns before he was drafted? Could this have been foreseen or is it just Lions Luck?

He played 12 games in 2017 at Washington, 14 in 2018 and 13 in 2019. So it looks like he played a full season of games every year he was at Washington.

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34 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I think so. It won’t be official until he’s cut this off-season but I’m willing to write him off.

Did Levi have back concerns before he was drafted? Could this have been foreseen or is it just Lions Luck?

the concerns were about how motovated he is.  very talented, but it didnt show up consistently on tape.  took a lot of plays off.  

nothing about back concerns.

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The Levi pick is definitely the one pick that Holmes deserves some criticism for, there were quite a few players that were consensusly viewed as better players that also filled a need but he still went with Levi who wasnt viewed as highly and had more question marks.

That's not to say that he isn't going to work out though considering the back injury it seems more and more likely but as of now it seems Holmes over thought the pick or maybe he fell in love with the person which blinded him to see things in film that really weren't there.

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It’s tough to evaluate the Levi pick out of context, much of which we don’t have yet. Sometimes these fluke things happen. If his back was a ticking time bomb, it didn’t matter who picked him or where, he was going to be a bust.

If our early round picks perpetually underperform or are ending up on the IR… it may be time to assign blame more directly.

Levi’s case is frustrating, and certainly Holmes is not fault-less. I’m not willing to indict him yet though.

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After reading this board for a while I’ve come to realize there’s nobody to blame. It’s a total rebuild and will take 4 years.  Everyone gets a free pass for the rest of this year and next.   Let’s stay positive until 2024 and then maybe we can criticize the organization again.   

Edited by Hongbit
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20 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

After reading this board for a while I’ve come to realize there’s nobody to blame. It’s a total rebuild and will take 4 years.  Everyone gets a free pass for the rest of this year and next.   Let’s stay positive until 2024 and then maybe we can criticize the organization again.   

Weird because I've come to realize that Campbell and Holmes are completely unable to turn it around after 1 1/4 years and Campbell's on the hot seat because he chose to receive in the one coin toss the Lions have won all year long.

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i dont see why brad holmes is above criticism.  he deserves it for whiffing on levi.  he also deserves praise for doing things like picking up cominsky and finding a lot of dbs who played well last year.  

not his fault half the team gets hurt every year.  hopefully paschal can be what levi was not.

lets just all agree we should really trade out of the second round next year.

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1 hour ago, buddha said:

i dont see why brad holmes is above criticism.  he deserves it for whiffing on levi.  he also deserves praise for doing things like picking up cominsky and finding a lot of dbs who played well last year.  

not his fault half the team gets hurt every year.  hopefully paschal can be what levi was not.

lets just all agree we should really trade out of the second round next year.

I can still see myself as a Dan C/Ben J/Brad H fan with a strong running game and OL, even if the D is poor and the passing game is inconsistent this year.

They have to find an identity, stick with it, AND at least execute their core on-field approach well.

OTOH, if the running game isn't going to be above average, and they have poor D, and the passing game is inconsistent, then this whole season would feel like a total bust.

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5 hours ago, Hongbit said:

After reading this board for a while I’ve come to realize there’s nobody to blame. It’s a total rebuild and will take 4 years.  Everyone gets a free pass for the rest of this year and next.   Let’s stay positive until 2024 and then maybe we can criticize the organization again.   

 

5 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Weird because I've come to realize that Campbell and Holmes are completely unable to turn it around after 1 1/4 years and Campbell's on the hot seat because he chose to receive in the one coin toss the Lions have won all year long.

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1 hour ago, buddha said:

i dont see why brad holmes is above criticism.  he deserves it for whiffing on levi.  he also deserves praise for doing things like picking up cominsky and finding a lot of dbs who played well last year.  

not his fault half the team gets hurt every year.  hopefully paschal can be what levi was not.

lets just all agree we should really trade out of the second round next year.

Agreed that BH is not above criticism. Maybe I'm wearing the rosy glasses, I just see more positives than negatives, despite the putrid product the last time they set foot on a field.

The day after Stafford was traded, the offense was a huge question mark - a couple potential playmakers in Hock, Swift, and Decker but otherwise middling talent. He took that within a year and turned it into a top five offense in the NFL (when healthy).

If Holmes can make half of that impact with the defense in the next year (before next August), we will be a playoff team next year. Hopefully the potential playmakers on that side of the ball (Okudah, Hutch, and... Paschal? Rodrigo?) can contribute to that build. I do think even just one serious playmaking leader a la Micah Parsons would make a world of difference to the defense on the whole.

Edited by MichiganCardinal
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I’m still squarely on the side of Brad and Dan but I don’t see an issue for giving them heat on a few of their questionable decisions.  
 

There are definite improvements on the offensive side and 2 premier playmakers have emerged.   That bodes well for the future.  The reality is they are going to be either 1-7 or 2-6 at the halfway point and the defense is the worst in the league and there doesn’t appear to be any quick fix in sight.  Even in a rebuild there has to be some accountability when things go that poorly.  

Personally,  I think they will get things figured out the second half and perform better against lesser competition and end up in the 6 or 7 win area that many of us predicted.  

Edited by Hongbit
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11 hours ago, buddha said:

i dont see why brad holmes is above criticism.  he deserves it for whiffing on levi.  he also deserves praise for doing things like picking up cominsky and finding a lot of dbs who played well last year.  

not his fault half the team gets hurt every year.  hopefully paschal can be what levi was not.

lets just all agree we should really trade out of the second round next year.

Remember the reports too that Holmes wanted to trade draft capital to move back up into the 1st round to get Levi.

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Holmes has built a nice offense, when not missing 4-5 key pieces. They are thin at TE and only have one decent backup lineman in Evan Brown though.

Defense is where they don't seem to be making much progress. His first draft has only yielded one decent player in McNeil. Levi was drafted about where he was projected, some had him as a late first rounder. That miss is probably just bad luck. Barnes is a long term project at best, and Melanfonwu looks like another injury bust. Missing on 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders from the same draft is not good. Add in that they traded for Brockers who hasn't helped at all.

This draft is a little better, but they need Paschel to contribute.

Some of the slow progress is Holmes and some is bad luck. They inherited only a couple of decent players from the previous regime and ironically all three have suffered Achilles injuries. 

Next year they will address the defense and if they are still bad then Campbell's and Holmes seats become hot.

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11 minutes ago, Stanley70 said:

Holmes has built a nice offense, when not missing 4-5 key pieces. They are thin at TE and only have one decent backup lineman in Evan Brown though.

Defense is where they don't seem to be making much progress. His first draft has only yielded one decent player in McNeil. Levi was drafted about where he was projected, some had him as a late first rounder. That miss is probably just bad luck. Barnes is a long term project at best, and Melanfonwu looks like another injury bust. Missing on 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders from the same draft is not good. Add in that they traded for Brockers who hasn't helped at all.

This draft is a little better, but they need Paschel to contribute.

Some of the slow progress is Holmes and some is bad luck. They inherited only a couple of decent players from the previous regime and ironically all three have suffered Achilles injuries. 

Next year they will address the defense and if they are still bad then Campbell's and Holmes seats become hot.

They drafted St Brown in the 4th round that year. They didn't miss on their 4th round pick. They drafted McNeil in the 3rd round that year as well who you said is a decent player so they didn't miss on their 3rd round pick. Brockers was traded for a 7th round pick. I doubt they get anyone better with a 7th rounder. If anything, the Benson trade was a lot worse. 

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Barnes was a 4th and Melanfonwu was a 3rd. Just because they had extra picks doesn't ease the sting of missing on those picks. 

Yes Brockers was traded for a 7th, but he has a 7M cap hit this year which could have been spent better elsewhere obviously. Plus it will cost 4M to cut him next year.

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If you swap St Brown and Levi and the draft suddenly looks better. They came away from that draft with Sewell and St Brown which appear to be foundational pieces. McNeil is ok and would probably be better with better talent around him. Two foundational pieces plus an average starter from a draft you had limited picks in to begin with is not bad. 

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1 minute ago, Stanley70 said:

Barnes was a 4th and Melanfonwu was a 3rd. Just because they had extra picks doesn't ease the sting of missing on those picks. 

Yes Brockers was traded for a 7th, but he has a 7M cap hit this year which could have been spent better elsewhere obviously. Plus it will cost 4M to cut him next year.

The "sting" of those picks? They draft a great receiver in the 4th and yet the complaining is about Barnes. A 4th round pick is much more likely to be Derrick Barnes than St Brown. It's why teams that build through the draft have multiple picks. 

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4 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Alim McNeill is on pace to have about 24 tackles this season, 0 sacks, and a PFF grade of 62. Does that fit the definition of decent? Maybe?

Milton Williams, who the Eagles took after they lost out on McNeil, has a 57 PFF grade with no sacks and is on pace for 17 tackles and Williams has more talent around him than McNeill. I think expectations of 3rd and 4th round picks is a little high. 

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2 minutes ago, Stanley70 said:

The focus is missing on 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders from the same draft. Yes he hit on St. Brown which was a great pick.

No GM goes 3 for three on those picks, but missing an all three stings. None of those three are decent backups at this point.

But he did hit on 3rd and 4th round picks that year so I'm not sure how it stings when the Lions drafted the best player in the 4th round that year and got a serviceable starter in the 3rd round so he didn't miss on all 3. McNeill and St Brown were taken before Melifonwu and Barnes so it stands to reason if the Lions didn't have those extra picks, Holmes would have drafted McNeill and St Brown over Melifonwu and Barnes. 

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Each pick is independent of the other. They missed on Levi, Melanfonwu, and Barnes. A 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounder, not sure what is wrong with saying that.

I believe they traded up to get Barnes as well so he actually cost a 5th in 21 and a 4th in 22. Or something like that.

All in all it was a good draft, a couple of stars but light on depth. They had extra picks that didn't work out.

Edited by Stanley70
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