Week Six: BYE

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, Stanley70 said:

Each pick is independent of the other. They missed on Levi, Melanfonwu and Barnes. A 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounder, not sure why what is wrong with saying that.

I believe they traded up to get Barnes as well so he actually cost a 5th in 21 and a 4th in 22. Or something like that.

All in all it was a good draft, a couple of stars but light on depth. They had extra picks that didn't work out.

But you said they missed on their 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks and left it at that. Using your same logic, they hit on McNeil and St Brown so not sure what is wrong with saying they hit on their 3rd and 4th round picks. 

They had 6 picks. They didn't have extra picks. They got two stars and an average starter. That's a pretty good take away. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

How much criticism does Brad Holmes deserve for not being more aggressive in targeting defensive free agents? I know Marcus Williams was the not name around here and I believe he is now on IR. But when you read some of Holmes' quotes from this past offseason, it really feels like they (mistakenly) trusted the talent they already had on the roster and what they would end up doing in the draft. They stood largely pat in free agency and didn't make any splash moves. SeShaun Elliot was the biggest free agent move they made on defense. They have the statistically worst defense in the NFL this season, well they did pre-bye week. Again, I say all this as a supporter of a lot of what Brad Holmes has done and am not even discussing moving on from Holmes, before someone infers that.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

 

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

How much criticism does Brad Holmes deserve for not being more aggressive in targeting defensive free agents? I know Marcus Williams was the not name around here and I believe he is now on IR. But when you read some of Holmes' quotes from this past offseason, it really feels like they (mistakenly) trusted the talent they already had on the roster and what they would end up doing in the draft. They stood largely pat in free agency and didn't make any splash moves. SeShaun Elliot was the biggest free agent move they made on defense. They have the statistically worst defense in the NFL this season, well they did pre-bye week. Again, I say all this as a supporter of a lot of what Brad Holmes has done and am not even discussing moving on from Holmes, before someone infers that.

Their biggest free agent commitment on offense was Jamaal Williams. They are still rebuilding and not spending a lot on either side of the ball. This was going to take more than one year. I would expect them to become more aggressive in the next free agency classes. Plus, it's not like they had a ton of cap space to begin with. 

[MichiganCardinal]

It may be worth mentioning that in the 2021 draft, scouting and the pre-draft process were significantly hindered across the NFL by COVID. For instance, Levi opted out of the 2020 season and they were relying exclusively on old film. That’s not a condition to expect for future classes. For the Lions in particular, they had a limited run-up to the draft as well, given they were a new regime in place hired just months beforehand.

That class in particular will probably turn out weird in a few ways as a result.

[buddha]

its too early to call barnes and melifonwu misses.  its not trending well, but they still have time.

especially melifonwu because of...wait for it...injuries.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

What's frustrating to me is that you have teams in year 1 or 2 of their rebuild and they already have better records, with worse QB situations and worse offenses than the Lions have. The Giants have a brand new GM and a brand new, first time head coach and are 5-1 and second in their division. They are 5-1 with Daniel Jones as a starting QB and no good offensive playmakers outside of Saquon Barkley.

The Jets are 4-2 with a second year head coach and a carousel of QBs with both Joe Flacco and Zac Wilson having started and won games for them. Albeit it, this is Joe Douglas' third year as GM but only second with Robert Saleh as the Head Coach.

The Seahawks were supposed to be contenders for the #1 pick this year and are now 3-3 and tied for the division lead. They have a career backup starting in Geno Smith and lost their best RB, Rashad Penny to an injury. They lit us up for 48 points with Geno Smith in at starting QB.

I always knew this was going to be a 3 year process. But it is still frustrating none-the-less to see teams you though would be worse, Giants, Jets, Seahawks, doing it quicker than we are.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Motown Bombers]

My issue with Barnes is that he seems to be long on talent and short on instincts. I still have more hope for Melifonwu. 

[buddha]

1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

What's frustrating to me is that you have teams in year 1 of their rebuild and they already have better records, with worse QB situations and worse offenses then the Lions do. The Giants have a brand new GM and a brand new, first time head coach and are 5-1 and second in their division. They are 5-1 with Daniel Jones as a starting QB and no good offensive playmakers outside of Saquon Barkley. The Jets are 4-2 with a second year head coach and a carousel of QBs with both Joe Flacco and Zac Wilson having started and won games for them. The Seahawks were supposed to be contenders for the #1 pick this year and are now 3-3 and tied for the division lead. They have a career backup starting in Geno Smith and lost their best RB, Rashad Penny to an injury. They lit us up for 48 points with Geno Smith in at starting QB.

I always knew this was going to be a 3 year process. But it is still frustrating none-the-less to see teams you though would be worse, Giants, Jets, Seahawks, doing it quicker than we are.

i agree.

that said, its been 6 games.  there is A LOT of season left to play.  these situations can turn around in a hurry.

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said:

What's frustrating to me is that you have teams in year 1 of their rebuild and they already have better records, with worse QB situations and worse offenses then the Lions do. The Giants have a brand new GM and a brand new, first time head coach and are 5-1 and second in their division. They are 5-1 with Daniel Jones as a starting QB and no good offensive playmakers outside of Saquon Barkley. The Jets are 4-2 with a second year head coach and a carousel of QBs with both Joe Flacco and Zac Wilson having started and won games for them. The Seahawks were supposed to be contenders for the #1 pick this year and are now 3-3 and tied for the division lead. They have a career backup starting in Geno Smith and lost their best RB, Rashad Penny to an injury. They lit us up for 48 points with Geno Smith in at starting QB.

I always knew this was going to be a 3 year process. But it is still frustrating none-the-less to see teams you though would be worse, Giants, Jets, Seahawks, doing it quicker than we are.

The Jets haven't done it quicker than the Lions. Joe Douglas was hired in 2019 and they traded Jamal Adams prior to 2020. They've received all the picks from that trade. The Lions still haven't received all the picks from the Stafford trade. 

I'm not sold on the Giants. They may have a good season and make the playoffs but I'm not convinced they have made some sort of turnaround into perennial contenders. As Rasheed Wallace once said "The sun even shines on a dog's ass once in a while."

The Seahawks are a well run organization and I think we are seeing that Russell Wilson needed the Seahawks more than the Seahawks needed Wilson. 

[RedRamage]

1 hour ago, Stanley70 said:

The focus is missing on 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders from the same draft. Yes he hit on St. Brown which was a great pick.

No GM goes 3 for three on those picks, but missing an all three stings. None of those three are decent backups at this point.

 

52 minutes ago, Stanley70 said:

Each pick is independent of the other. They missed on Levi, Melanfonwu, and Barnes. A 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounder, not sure what is wrong with saying that.

I don't think these two posts are logically consistent. In one instance you are saying that the fact that Holmes missed on three is what makes it bad, but then you're also saying that each pick is independent. It feels a little bit like taking 5 At Bats for a hitter in a game and saying that he struck out on the 2nd, 3rd and 5th at bat, so it was a bad game for him while ignoring the home run he hit in his first at bat and the single he got in his 4th at bat.

That's not to say that I'm pleased that Holmes appears to have whiffed on the other guys, but if you only look at the bad things without considering the good, then yeah... Holmes, or any GM, is going to look very, very bad.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

i agree.

that said, its been 6 games.  there is A LOT of season left to play.  these situations can turn around in a hurry.

I know. Right now as fans, we are stuck in the rut of what we've seen and what we know. It's hard to be disciplined as a fan and tell yourself to just wait for the rest of the season to playout. The next 3 games will be more telling than the last I feel. Coming out of a bye week, they should be able to readjust and reset some things. I don't think anyone expects them to beat Dallas, but we at least want them to look competitive and see this offense rebound to what it was in the first 4 games. If it doesn't and they go and get skunked, even against a really good Dallas defense, then you are really going to start to see fans panic. The other two games, Dolphins and Packers, are now games they should be in the conversation to win. The Dolphins are potentially starting either Teddy Bridgewater or Skylar Thompson at QB when facing us. The Packers just got torched by the Jets and haven't exactly looked dominate thus far this year.

If we come out of that 3 game stretch with the defense looking as it has and the offense not rebounding, that means we're in 1-7 territory as a team having gone 0-3 in those games. At that point, you see a coaching staff and a front office spiraling downward and you're just looking for somewhere on the schedule where we will finally get a win.

And as I have said all season long, what I want to see more than anything is improvement from this team and coaching staff. Individual player improvement with guys getting better week to week. Unit improvement with entire personnel groups looking better on the whole over the course of the season. And competent coaching with improvement that shows this coaching staff is growing, but learning from their mistakes. If we are 1-7 3 weeks after the bye, I think it will be hard to say we saw marked improvement from this team.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

13 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The Jets haven't done it quicker than the Lions. Joe Douglas was hired in 2019 and they traded Jamal Adams prior to 2020. They've received all the picks from that trade. The Lions still haven't received all the picks from the Stafford trade. 

I'm not sold on the Giants. They may have a good season and make the playoffs but I'm not convinced they have made some sort of turnaround into perennial contenders. As Rasheed Wallace once said "The sun even shines on a dog's ass once in a while."

The Seahawks are a well run organization and I think we are seeing that Russell Wilson needed the Seahawks more than the Seahawks needed Wilson. 

I get that Joe Douglas has been there going on 4 years, but their coaching staff has only been in place as long as Campbell has here. On the Giants front, I'm not sold on them either being a long term, successful team. But here we are with them sitting at 5-1. And it isn't like they only beat up on the bottom feeders of the league either. Green Bay, Baltimore, and Tennessee are all quality wins for the Giants. They did it with no Kenny Golladay, no Sterling Shephard for the past 3 games, no Kadarius Toney. They are starting a collection of rookies and borderline practice squad guys at WR, with Daniel Jones still at QB. Yet they are finding ways to win still.

I am aware that I am being one of those fans right now that is not showing patience and only reacting to what's in front of me. I know that the season is young and that Holmes and Campbell deserve more patience and time than this. I want to give it to them too. I know we could come out of the bye week, make changes, and improve on defense, as we did last year on offense after the bye. I know we could be the Bengals and go from worst to first with a few changes from one offseason to the next. But right now, getting lost in the weeds of a 1-4 record, the league worst performance of this defense, Dan Campbell's coaching mistakes, and seeing Levi out for then season, it's hard to be patient and optimistic for the future.

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I get that Joe Douglas has been there going on 4 years, but their coaching staff has only been in place as long as Campbell has here. On the Giants front, I'm not sold on them either being a long term, successful team. But here we are with them sitting at 5-1. And it isn't like they only beat up on the bottom feeders of the league either. Green Bay, Baltimore, and Tennessee are all quality wins for the Giants. They did it with no Kenny Golladay, no Sterling Shephard for the past 3 games, no Kadarius Toney. They are starting a collection of rookies and borderline practice squad guys at WR, with Daniel Jones still at QB. Yet they are finding ways to win still.

I am aware that I am being one of those fans right now that is not showing patience and only reacting to what's in front of me. I know that the season is young and that Holmes and Campbell deserve more patience and time than this. I want to give it to them too. I know we could come out of the bye week, make changes, and improve on defense, as we did last year on offense after the bye. I know we could be the Bengals and go from worst to first with a few changes from one offseason to the next. But right now, getting lost in the weeds of a 1-4 record, the league worst performance of this defense, Dan Campbell's coaching mistakes, and seeing Levi out for then season, it's hard to be patient and optimistic for the future.

Yeah and Saleh started with a higher floor of talent. In 2020 they won 2 games. Last year they won 4. One of their wins this year was pure luck against Cleveland. I do like what the Jets have going. They accumulated draft picks and are building a foundation similar to the Lions. 

It's also just as easy the Giants will come back to reality the second half. I'm not sure what to make about the Giants and don't see them as some example as a team that made a miraculous turnaround yet. The lack of talent you mentioned on offense is likely going to be exposed eventually. 

[Tigeraholic1]

1 hour ago, Stanley70 said:

Each pick is independent of the other. They missed on Levi, Melanfonwu, and Barnes. A 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounder, not sure what is wrong with saying that.

I believe they traded up to get Barnes as well so he actually cost a 5th in 21 and a 4th in 22. Or something like that.

All in all it was a good draft, a couple of stars but light on depth. They had extra picks that didn't work out.

I don't think Levi was a miss, he was lost to injury. It's the NFL and thats going to happen to every team at some point.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Tigeraholic1

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 hour ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I don't think Levi was a miss, he was lost to injury. It's the NFL and thats going to happen to every team at some point.

It's a miss based on who they passed on and that the Lions desperately needed a LB (they desperately needed a DT too). JOK was still on the board and they passed on him. JOK looks like a really good NFL player and Levi does not.

[Stanley70]

2 hours ago, RedRamage said:

 

I don't think these two posts are logically consistent. In one instance you are saying that the fact that Holmes missed on three is what makes it bad, but then you're also saying that each pick is independent. It feels a little bit like taking 5 At Bats for a hitter in a game and saying that he struck out on the 2nd, 3rd and 5th at bat, so it was a bad game for him while ignoring the home run he hit in his first at bat and the single he got in his 4th at bat.

That's not to say that I'm pleased that Holmes appears to have whiffed on the other guys, but if you only look at the bad things without considering the good, then yeah... Holmes, or any GM, is going to look very, very bad.

It's how you look at it. Take his day 3 picks. He started with a 4th, a 5th and a 7th. He hit on the 4th and missed on the other 2 and threw in a 2022 4th as well. Now would I trade  2 4th's, a 5th and 7th and St Brown? Of course. There is a missed opportunity though.

And he started day 2 with a 2nd, and 2 3rds. He went 1 for 3 (so far, I agree there is time for Melanfonwu and Levi).

And the draft overall was a good one, I am just saying he missed some picks that could have helped the defense.

[djhutch]

I am holding out hope that the NE game was an example of Belichick handing it to a rookie OC.  Ben Johnson has done some pretty good things with this offense, but Belichick is a master of exploiting tendencies & making you beat him another way.  Hopefully we learn from this & jump back into being competitive.

[Motor City Sonics]

So Levi got back surgery and is out for the season............that feels like bust now.  Do guys his size fully recover from back surgery?      Another 2nd found fail.    Every regime.  It's so puzzling.  

[Motor City Sonics]

This idea that sometimes you miss on a pick is annoying.     1st and 2nd round players are supposed to be starting players at the least.   When you whiff on 2nd rounders 8 out of 10 years, you are missing out on a lot of starting talen.   Did Levi have back issues in college too?      There's your curse.........the second round...........through every single regime of the last 30 years.   

[RandyMarsh]

Sounds like a Tigers move, levi's been dealing with this back injury for awhile and instead of trying to nip it in the bud right away they waste months resting and rehabbing only to eventually get surgery anyway. 

[buddha]

1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

Sounds like a Tigers move, levi's been dealing with this back injury for awhile and instead of trying to nip it in the bud right away they waste months resting and rehabbing only to eventually get surgery anyway. 

i think they took a chance on a guy with great measurables who had a rap as having motivation issues.

and it didnt pan out.  even when he was supposedly healthy, he wasnt good.  

it happens.  we know the lions' misses in the draft because were lions fans, but every team misses in the draft.  holmes needs to hit on a qb soon, that will make or break his gm career in detroit.

[buddha]

2 hours ago, djhutch said:

I am holding out hope that the NE game was an example of Belichick handing it to a rookie OC.  Ben Johnson has done some pretty good things with this offense, but Belichick is a master of exploiting tendencies & making you beat him another way.  Hopefully we learn from this & jump back into being competitive.

i think it was belichick remembering who jared goff is, and the lions had no counter because all their playmakers were injured (and jared goff is a below average nfl qb).

that said, did the pats expose the lions oline a bit?  they looked bad in pass pro.  matt judon took turns making sewell and decker look pedestrian.

[Motor City Sonics]

How about in the future - instead of trying to swing for a possible home run,  just pick a guy who you know is going to be a contributor in the 2nd round.  Even if they aren't going to be awesome,  just someone that can consistently play well?  They take an awful lot of chances for a team that never does anything.  How about building it up, getting good enough to contend and then you take the home run swing?     

They've missed on so many. 

 

Honestly guys, how many times have you watched the NFL draft and saw the list of good players still available for their 2nd round pick only to go "Wait, what?"       They got it right with Swift.  Too bad his career will be Billy Sims-length, but that one you went "alright, there you go".   I don't recall too many other times where that happened.    I hope Josh works out this year, but there were a number of guys there that could have helped this team immediately and several of them are already contributing.   When the called Josh Pascal's name it was another "um............okay.........maybe".    Now Josh is in a position were he is going to have to really be good to seem like we didn't mess up again and we might be asking too much of him.    Just look at the 2nd round guys of the last decade that were taken in the picks right after the Lions.  Have a drink first, you'll need it.