What makes Justyn-Henry Malloy a Worthy Asset?

[Tenacious D]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

And that's fine, I respect that. I don't agree with the position, but if you think Jeimer's bad and should leave in any case, great.

I’ll give you a radical, in-house solution.  Move Schoop to 3B, where his diminishing mobility will likely play better, and give Wenceel Perez a long look in Spring Training for 2B.  I don’t think he’d be that overmatched.  You’d want to have a veteran utility player as insurance, but if Harris is serious about giving AB’s to our prospects, this would be consistent with that position.

[chasfh]

Just now, Tenacious D said:

I’ll give you a radical, in-house solution.  Move Schoop to 3B, where his diminishing mobility will likely play better, and give Wenceel Perez a long look in Spring Training for 2B.  I don’t think he’d be that overmatched.  You’d want to have a veteran utility player as insurance, but if Harris is serious about giving AB’s to our prospects, this would be consistent with that position.

Schoop has played something like 12 total innings at third base nine years ago, so I personally don't like the solution. But writers are buzzing about it, and it seems like whenever that happens, it happens. So it's probably gonna happen, and I'll root for him to succeed there when it does.

[Tenacious D]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

Schoop has played something like 12 total innings at third base nine years ago, so I personally don't like the solution. But writers are buzzing about it, and it seems like whenever that happens, it happens. So it's probably gonna happen, and I'll root for him to succeed there when it does.

In a lost season, where he’s not blocking anyone, I’ll allow it.

Hopefully the hyphenated, human walking machine can challenge that at some point in the season.  And Schoop can finish the last half of his last season with the Tigers as utility guy.

[mtutiger]

28 minutes ago, chasfh said:

And that's fine, I respect that. I don't agree with the position, but if you think Jeimer's bad and should leave in any case, great.

Jeimer isn't bad, but the Tigers as an org are going to act with a fiduciary responsibility in how they approach contracts. I understand that we are all fans and it production is our currency and all, but this is the real world... if most fans had their way, they would have given Aaron Judge a half billion to come here. It's easy to spend the dollars when they aren't yours.

I think the Tigers did with Jeimer what most other orgs would have done in that situation. They offered what they thought was fair value, Jeimer didn't want to play ball, they moved on. And ultimately the market seems to have determined that they were more right than wrong in their determination.

It is what it is. I just don't think the Tigers should have felt obligated to make the safe and conservative move and pay him more than he was worth on the market.... maybe they don't find something better in the end, but I give them credit for rolling the dice and actually trying something different

Edited December 18, 2022 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

23 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Jeimer isn't bad, but the Tigers as an org are going to act with a fiduciary responsibility in how they approach contracts. I understand that we are all fans and it production is our currency and all, but this is the real world... if most fans had their way, they would have given Aaron Judge a half billion to come here. It's easy to spend the dollars when they aren't yours.

I think the Tigers did with Jeimer what most other orgs would have done in that situation. They offered what they thought was fair value, Jeimer didn't want to play ball, they moved on. And ultimately the market seems to have determined that they were more right than wrong in their determination.

It is what it is. I just don't think the Tigers should have felt obligated to make the safe and conservative move and pay him more than he was worth on the market.... maybe they don't find something better in the end, but I give them credit for rolling the dice and actually trying something different

The point I was making was that it would make no sense for a fan to want Jeimer if he'll take 3 million, but not if it were to take 7 million to bring him back. A fan either wants Jeimer on the field for the Tigers, or they don't, because production, not salary. Tenacious D got where I was coming from.

In any event, I'm pretty sure the Tigers knew Jeimer wasn't going to take the deal, at least before going onto the market. Maybe they made a standing offer to him that he could take at any time if the market wasn't shaping up for him, as long as we don't backfill your position in the meantime. Or maybe they said here it is, you have x number of hours to take this deal or buh-bye. Who knows. But he did end up with a number from the Nationals that was close to what he was projected to get in arb anyway, provided he hits all his targets.

That actually brings up something that occurs to me for the first time: given the free agent deals that are blowing original projections out of the water, are arbitration targets going to be similarly exceeded? How much will the FA dollars influence exchanged numbers, as well as arbitrator's decisions? I gotta believe it will have some impact.

[mtutiger]

10 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The point I was making was that it would make no sense for a fan to want Jeimer if he'll take 3 million, but not if it were to take 7 million to bring him back. 

IIRC, the number they offered wasn't $3 million, it was closer to the $5 he ended up getting. 

[Jim Cowan]

I'm against paying a guy $7 million if he is only worth $5 million because I understand that payroll is a limited resource and will be used to construct the entire roster, not just one position.  So it makes all kinds of sense for me, as a fan, to agree that he can stay for 5 but not for 7.  What makes no sense at all to me, as a fan, would be to think that it doesn't matter what the price is for his production.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

Jeimer isn't bad, but the Tigers ... but I give them credit for rolling the dice and actually trying something different

The flipside is...

The dice still could have been rolled that he would recover to a 3-ish WAR level (definitely risk there) and traded him before the deadline for something of value. That might be different (given our recent history...). This is where I was at... 

But now that he's gone... nothing I can do but move on.

My preference was that he be tendered though.

Too late. No crying over spilt milk...

[mtutiger]

8 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

The dice still could have been rolled that he would recover to a 3-ish WAR level (definitely risk there) and traded him before the deadline for something of value.

Maybe that possibility was considered when they chose to roll the dice?

[1984Echoes]

Could be...

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said:

I'm against paying a guy $7 million if he is only worth $5 million because I understand that payroll is a limited resource and will be used to construct the entire roster, not just one position.  So it makes all kinds of sense for me, as a fan, to agree that he can stay for 5 but not for 7.  What makes no sense at all to me, as a fan, would be to think that it doesn't matter what the price is for his production.

It’s true, a payroll isn’t a limited resource.  His 2022 isn’t worth $7M.  But I think that given his history and the team wide offensive slump in 2022, there’s reason to believe he can bounce back.

Heck, $7M is less than they gave to each of Boyd and Lorenzen.  Are either of them any more solid risks than Candelario in 2023?

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said:

I'm against paying a guy $7 million if he is only worth $5 million because I understand that payroll is a limited resource and will be used to construct the entire roster, not just one position.  So it makes all kinds of sense for me, as a fan, to agree that he can stay for 5 but not for 7.  What makes no sense at all to me, as a fan, would be to think that it doesn't matter what the price is for his production.

That is true from Harris' perspective, but fans don't know the Tigers budget.  If they start offering higher salaries, that could be an indication that their budget is higher than some think and they aren't worried about the $2 million difference. A more negative perspective would be we don't know if the Tigers are going spend that $7 million on somebody else or if they are just going to pocket the savings. 

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

That is true from Harris' perspective, but fans don't know the Tigers budget.  If they start offering higher salaries, that could be an indication that their budget is higher than some think and they aren't worried about the $2 million difference. 

Can't really change it because it's just the nature of fans, but the decision to tender or not tender a specific player or not to deliberately pay a player over his market value shouldn't be used as an indicator of whether a team is cheap or not.

Still think the Tigers did what most teams would have done in this situation.

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

Heck, $7M is less than they gave to each of Boyd and Lorenzen.  Are either of them any more solid risks than Candelario in 2023?

As big a risk as they both are, they are being paid at market value. And, like Candy's deal with the Nationals, both have incentives built into their contract as well.

The Tigers were in a tough spot with Candy... unlike all 29 other teams who had the opportunity to negotiate fair value for him after being non-tendered, the only real chance they had to keep him was to pay him the full monty. I can understand both sides, but ultimately baseball is a business and teams (not just the Tigers) aren't necessarily in the business of overpaying players to the tune of 40% or more over their market value.

As fans, a lot of us will not get it because it ain't our money. But it's understandable why they did it and I imagine Harris knew what he was doing and knew the risks when he did it.

[Jim Cowan]

I'll be curious to see if Justyn-Henry plays third base at Toledo.  I hope so, give him 40 games there and if he is covered in bruises then you say oh well, he's a left fielder.  And let's see what Wenceel Perez can do with 40 games at second base at Toledo.  Is he a major league regular or not, I think that the consensus might be "not", but let's find out.  Those are the two guys that I am most interested in for 2023.

[chasfh]

As 337 implied, it’s false to assume anything that is being done with the money that is saved, whether it would be used to pay another player or simply pocketed by the owner. In the end, if Jeimer were to fulfill the expectations of his detractors by coming back and putting up, say, 0 WAR in 2023, is it really better for the fan—is the team really better—if he gives us 0 WAR for $5 million than if he gives us 0 WAR for $7 million? If 0 WAR is his top end at age 29, what difference does it make? And even if we think 1 WAR is his top end, why would we want him here for any price? 

[Jim Cowan]

Harris did not come here to save money for the owner.  Why would he take a job like that?  He has a budget, and he is going to spend it, but not by overpaying guys by 40%.  

[chasfh]

I don’t know how that makes paying $5 million for presumably zero production OK, but OK.

[Jim Cowan]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don’t know how that makes paying $5 million for presumably zero production OK, but OK.

Harris thinks he's worth $5 million but not $7 million.  

[chasfh]

9 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Harris thinks he's worth $5 million but not $7 million.  

I’m talking about fans, not Harris. If you’re a fan, and you think Jeimer is worthless at third base, then shouldn’t you want someone else there no matter what, instead of accepting his worthlessness there for another year simply because it saved the owner the extra 40%?

[Jim Cowan]

Just now, chasfh said:

I’m talking about fans, not Harris. If you’re a fan, and you think Jeimer is worthless at third base, then shouldn’t you want someone else there no matter what, instead of accepting his worthlessness there for another year simply because it saved the owner the extra 40%?

I'm not Harris, I'm a fan.  I'm against overpaying Candelario by 40% because within a fixed budget it weakens the team.  And Harris isn't there to save money for the owner, I don't know where that is coming from.

[mtutiger]

40 minutes ago, chasfh said:

As 337 implied, it’s false to assume anything that is being done with the money that is saved, whether it would be used to pay another player or simply pocketed by the owner. 

It's also false to assume anything isn't being done with the money that is saved.

[Tenacious D]

I doubt Harris is making any personnel decisions based on fan sentiment, but it would have been a very bad look if the new administration gave a raise to a player who hit under .220 with an OPS that would be low for a utility infielder, combined with poor defense.  You could even say it would be a bit tone deaf with what is currently taking place with the economy and challenges that others are going through. 

[Dan Gilmore]

The other things (beyond Malloy and Perez) I am interested in for 2023: is Turnbull healthy and effective, is A Meadows going to provide production near pre-2022 levels and can Carpenter continue his strong 2022 play going forward. There are other things of course, but success in those cases would make for a more watchable team and some sense of moving forward on a timeline shorter than four more years of rebuild, as some have said. 

[Longgone]

31 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Harris thinks he's worth $5 million but not $7 million.  

I wouldn't put any faith in the report that the Tigers offered a lower contract. If they'd wanted to keep Candelario, they would have made it happen.