Random Randomness.

[gehringer_2]

19 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Sounds like they were selling loaner vehicles as new.  Some with as much as 6,000 miles on them.

Come to think of it, I bought a car from LaFontaine in Dexter once, but that was long time ago. No issues but it was a much a smaller operation then than now - new bldg/new site since.

[Biff Mayhem]

Detroit guy John 5 shows off his massive Kiss collection. 
 

Even if you don’t like Kiss, this guy is such a humble dude and his passion for collecting is top tier. He doesn’t drink or do drugs; he just lives out his childhood dreams via his success as a musician. 
 

 

[oblong]

Have no idea on the truth of this but….

[Deleterious]

Not sure if I would classify Roscommon as a metro area.  I don't even think they have 1,000 people in their town.

 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Sad to see The Ticket name and branding going away in favor of 97.1 Detroit Sports Radio Network. That's as bad a name as when it was 97.1 Detroit Sports Powerhouse back when they first moved to 97.1 from 1270. That's going to be a mouthful to say on the air is it not? Sounds like an awkward name for a station too. From the 97.1 Detroit Sports Radio Network update desk I'm Jeremy Otto for more keep it right here or go to 971detroitsportsradionetwork.com

[Deleterious]

Well now

 

[chasfh]

On 11/4/2025 at 6:30 PM, Deleterious said:

Heads up if you bought a new car from LaFontaine.

 

If one guy is doing it, others are also doing it, and probably getting away with it at the moment.

[chasfh]

On 11/6/2025 at 7:41 AM, Biff Mayhem said:

Detroit guy John 5 shows off his massive Kiss collection. 
 

Even if you don’t like Kiss, this guy is such a humble dude and his passion for collecting is top tier. He doesn’t drink or do drugs; he just lives out his childhood dreams via his success as a musician. 
 

 

He’d be a lot cooler if he drank and did drugs. 😉

[chasfh]

53 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

Well now

 

Millions of incels just melted into a puddle.

[chasfh]

20 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Not sure if I would classify Roscommon as a metro area.  I don't even think they have 1,000 people in their town.

 

They did say Roscommon is a “market” rather than a “metro”, so, technically, that’s accurate as far as that goes.

They are initially leaving the Flint and the Saginaw-Bay City-Midland markets uncovered, so I assume they will fill that gap pretty quickly. TC-Petoskey is also a pretty fair-sized market lousy with Detroit sports fans, particularly ex-pats.

Also, not for nothing, I’m glad they used a picture of Dan doing Tiger games rather than Valenti’s ugly mug.

[Shades of Deivi Cruz]

6 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Well now

 

I am not a fan of death metal at all, but holy hell that's amazing. I love that she did that.

[Biff Mayhem]

On 11/7/2025 at 2:24 PM, Shades of Deivi Cruz said:

I am not a fan of death metal at all, but holy hell that's amazing. I love that she did that.

I like some death metal but it concerns me when women sing it. 

[Deleterious]

We have to share the streets with these people.

 

[Biff Mayhem]

7 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

We have to share the streets with these people.

 

Another reason why I sold my motorcycle. 

[casimir]

10 hours ago, Deleterious said:

We have to share the streets with these people.

 

 

10 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said:

Another reason why I sold my motorcycle. 

This is why I stick to bicycle trails as much as possible when I bicycle.  If I am on a road, I drive against traffic to see what I am in the lane with/next to.  Sure, I understand bicycles have a right to be on the road.  But I don't like the physics of it if/when there's a conflict of space.

[oblong]

I love how small the world is. I once again visited family in TN. We go into Saturday morning because it’s 73 degrees (they closed schools yesterday and today due to ice).  Go into a cool looking place called Chill Billees.  From talking to the staff it turns out the owner is from michigan and his sister made our meal. She’s there for the week to help get things started so he could tend to his restaurant back here, some BBQ place.  The waiter goes over to her and I can see him pointing to his hand to find out where she’s from. “Near Detroit”.  I stop by on my way to the restroom and talk some more.  She lives across the street from Nancy Whiskeys.   
 

500 miles away. 

[Screwball]

Don't know where to put this so this is as good as any I guess. 

Yesterday was the 50th anniversary of the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald on lake Superior. Some of us are old enough to remember, but others probably not. Many remember the song about it by Gordon Lightfoot. There are a few documentaries made for the anniversary. I watched this one which I thought was pretty good. Enjoy if you like this kind of stuff;

Gales of November: The Final Voyage of the Edmund Fitzgerald | Documentary | FOX6 Milwaukee

[oblong]

John U Bacon has a new book out about it. I’ve been eating it all up. 

[Netnerd]

On 11/8/2025 at 10:57 PM, Biff Mayhem said:

Another reason why I sold my motorcycle. 

Same.

[ewsieg]

On 11/4/2025 at 10:39 PM, gehringer_2 said:

well clearly, that's a pretty bad thing to do, but still, at some point you have to ask how much protection a consumer needs? How do you not know? Or do they just con people, or are there people who sign on the dotted line before they sit in the car they are going to buy? I guess maybe.....The world is getting to be too weird.

No one was conned, it was a clerical error and SOS wanted to make it look like they were defending the consumer.  

My Mother in Law works at Moran Chevrolet and people come into the dealership specifically looking to buy these.  The dealer uses them as 'rentals' for customers that are getting their vehicles serviced.  The dealership is allowed to use them for a period of time and the manufacturer allows them to still sell them as 'new' to make them eligible for additional discounts as they are never titled to an individual.

The consumer is able to get a 'new' car at a discount because of the miles on it, plus get the manufacturer discounts for new cars to make it a better deal for them then if they purchased a new car right off the lot with less then 100 miles.  

Michigan is one of the only states that doesn't allow you to sell the car as new (by the state).  So they are legally allowed to sell it as used in the eyes of the state, but new in the eyes of the manufacturer.  Lafontaine was not going back and ensuring that the documentation was correct for the state.  

In short, instead of trying to match laws to an issue that dealerships and manufacturers that already solved, they are 1) not doing anything to try and ease the useless paperwork dealerships need to do and 2) they are playing it off as some big win.  Benson will probably tout it as what she'll do to protect Michiganders as she runs for Governor.

[gehringer_2]

4 hours ago, ewsieg said:

No one was conned, it was a clerical error and SOS wanted to make it look like they were defending the consumer.  

My Mother in Law works at Moran Chevrolet and people come into the dealership specifically looking to buy these.  The dealer uses them as 'rentals' for customers that are getting their vehicles serviced.  The dealership is allowed to use them for a period of time and the manufacturer allows them to still sell them as 'new' to make them eligible for additional discounts as they are never titled to an individual.

The consumer is able to get a 'new' car at a discount because of the miles on it, plus get the manufacturer discounts for new cars to make it a better deal for them then if they purchased a new car right off the lot with less then 100 miles.  

Michigan is one of the only states that doesn't allow you to sell the car as new (by the state).  So they are legally allowed to sell it as used in the eyes of the state, but new in the eyes of the manufacturer.  Lafontaine was not going back and ensuring that the documentation was correct for the state.  

In short, instead of trying to match laws to an issue that dealerships and manufacturers that already solved, they are 1) not doing anything to try and ease the useless paperwork dealerships need to do and 2) they are playing it off as some big win.  Benson will probably tout it as what she'll do to protect Michiganders as she runs for Governor.

There has always been a system of discounts for buying 'demos' off the lot, which is any car never titled but over the 'new car' mileage limit, which at least used to 30 miles. If these cars were sold 'as new' without disclosures that there were demo/rentals, with a couple of hundred miles on them, that is a violation. It doesn't really matter what FoMoCo or GM or Toyota thinks, they don't make the rules. It sounds like what is happening here is that the dealers aren't willing to discount demo cars enough to meet the price of new car incentives so that becomes the motivator to sell them as new. But those aren't the rules.

And in the end, it's just the dealers trying to save themselves money. The right way to do it is put a few cars into a into a dealer owned loaner pool for a year and take the depreciation in their value on sale. Instead they are trying to get their loaners for free by running a lot of new cars a little and selling them as new.

Edited Tuesday at 09:23 PM by gehringer_2

[ewsieg]

28 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

There has always been a system of discounts for buying 'demos' off the lot, which is any car never titled but over the 'new car' mileage limit, which at least used to 30 miles. If these cars were sold 'as new' without disclosures that there were demo/rentals, with a couple of hundred miles on them, that is a violation. It doesn't really matter what FoMoCo or GM or Toyota thinks, they don't make the rules. It sounds like what is happening here is that the dealers aren't willing to discount demo cars enough to meet the price of new car incentives so that becomes the motivator to sell them as new. But those aren't the rules.

And in the end, it's just the dealers trying to save themselves money. The right way to do it is put a few cars into a into a dealer owned loaner pool for a year and take the depreciation in their value on sale. Instead they are trying to get their loaners for free by running a lot of new cars a little and selling them as new.

Used/New, it really doesn't matter.  They aren't new cars and they aren't being sold as new cars.  End of story as far as the consumer is concerned.  They are 'like new' cars sold at a discount, just like demo cars.  The difference here is the manufacturer, in agreement with the dealership, allows them to be sold as 'new' which allows the consumer to also gain the benefit of certain discounts only allowed on new cars.  (actually it might not be a difference at all, Demo cars were typically given to sales people to drive (benefit to the employee, also lets him promote the vehicles, these are essentially demo cars given to customers to build loyalty) 

It actually costs more for the dealership as well.  15 years ago if I had to drop off my car at Moran, they had an Enterprise office and if my car was under warranty, the manufacturer would cover the cost of the rental.  If not, I had to pay for a rental or simply be without my car for the duration of the service. Depending on the situation, the dealer might cover it as well.  Dealerships, in an attempt to secure more service department business started using their own vehicles.  The manufacturer doesn't have to cover the cost of a rental, but in turn they agree to still allow the dealership to sell the service vehicles as new.  The dealership is able to provide better service which keeps more returning customers and they gain volume on the added costs they incur making it better for them as well.  It works out for everybody.   

SOS should have noticed the discrepancy in the paperwork, called it out, and had them fix it.  Or, as I said, even better yet, they should have noticed the discrepancy, realized how ass backwords Michigan law is, and worked with dealerships in conjunction with the legislative branch to find a way to ensure dealerships don't have to spend more time and money to play their stupid little checkbox game AND help protect consumers. 

This benefits no one.  Not a single person bought a vehicle with 5k miles and got home, looked at the odometer and went 'WTF?'.  In fact this law only hurts consumers because in Michigan, unlike most other states that allow this to be documented as a new vehicle sale, the warranty on that car starts when the dealership puts it into it's rental service.  In other states, the manufacturer doesn't start the clock on the warranty until it is titled to the new owner.

Edited Tuesday at 09:50 PM by ewsieg

[gehringer_2]

34 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Or, as I said, even better yet, they should have noticed the discrepancy, realized how ass backwords Michigan law is, and worked with dealerships in conjunction with the legislative branch to find a way to ensure dealerships don't have to spend more time and money to play their stupid little checkbox game AND help protect consumers. 

This benefits no one.  Not a single person bought a vehicle with 5k miles and got home, looked at the odometer and went 'WTF?'.  In fact this law only hurts consumers because in Michigan, unlike most other states that allow this to be documented as a new vehicle sale, the warranty on that car starts when the dealership puts it into it's rental service.  In other states, the manufacturer doesn't start the clock on the warranty until it is titled to the new owner.

the last two points are the relevant ones. If you don't like the rule work the process, you don't just ignore it. 

The full warranty would be the only real value to the consumer in all this.

And of course the dealer story here only parses to the consumer's advantage if the incentives are greater than the market discount for a demo. In the absence of being able to prove the negative, we can still wonder if in the absence of SOS attention the practice would actually go away when incentives shrink or end.

You'll just have to bear with the fact that after a lifetime of experience, there is no business sector in the world I have less predisposition to give the benefit of the doubt than car dealers. 🤷‍♂️

Edited Tuesday at 10:22 PM by gehringer_2

[oblong]

1 hour ago, ewsieg said:

Used/New, it really doesn't matter.  They aren't new cars and they aren't being sold as new cars.  End of story as far as the consumer is concerned.  They are 'like new' cars sold at a discount, just like demo cars.  The difference here is the manufacturer, in agreement with the dealership, allows them to be sold as 'new' which allows the consumer to also gain the benefit of certain discounts only allowed on new cars.  (actually it might not be a difference at all, Demo cars were typically given to sales people to drive (benefit to the employee, also lets him promote the vehicles, these are essentially demo cars given to customers to build loyalty) 

It actually costs more for the dealership as well.  15 years ago if I had to drop off my car at Moran, they had an Enterprise office and if my car was under warranty, the manufacturer would cover the cost of the rental.  If not, I had to pay for a rental or simply be without my car for the duration of the service. Depending on the situation, the dealer might cover it as well.  Dealerships, in an attempt to secure more service department business started using their own vehicles.  The manufacturer doesn't have to cover the cost of a rental, but in turn they agree to still allow the dealership to sell the service vehicles as new.  The dealership is able to provide better service which keeps more returning customers and they gain volume on the added costs they incur making it better for them as well.  It works out for everybody.   

SOS should have noticed the discrepancy in the paperwork, called it out, and had them fix it.  Or, as I said, even better yet, they should have noticed the discrepancy, realized how ass backwords Michigan law is, and worked with dealerships in conjunction with the legislative branch to find a way to ensure dealerships don't have to spend more time and money to play their stupid little checkbox game AND help protect consumers. 

This benefits no one.  Not a single person bought a vehicle with 5k miles and got home, looked at the odometer and went 'WTF?'.  In fact this law only hurts consumers because in Michigan, unlike most other states that allow this to be documented as a new vehicle sale, the warranty on that car starts when the dealership puts it into it's rental service.  In other states, the manufacturer doesn't start the clock on the warranty until it is titled to the new owner.

Is it the SOS job to decide the legitimacy or any laws or regulation?  I’ve never heard of an agency of a government just ignoring a process because it’s stupid. That opens the door for all kinds of shenanigans across all industries. “Nah, that’s dumb. Don’t worry about it.  Just put down whatever.” 
 

[ewsieg]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

You'll just have to bear with the fact that after a lifetime of experience, there is no business sector in the world I have less predisposition to give the benefit of the doubt than car dealers. 🤷‍♂️

From a lifetime of experience in dealing with multiple industries, I feel like several shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt, including manufacturers and dealerships.  My issue with SOS is shutting them down, which they have the right to do, and doing a press release that lies and says this:

"LANSING, Mich. – Today, the Michigan Department of State (MDOS) suspended the license of LaFontaine Chevrolet Buick GMC of St. Clair, Inc. for imminent harm to the public. The vehicle dealership is located at 3050 King Rd. in China Township, Mich."

No harm was done to the public. Zip, Zero, Zilch.  An administrative issue was not correctly done, LaFontaine should do it correctly, but let's not pretend it caused harm to the public.

27 minutes ago, oblong said:

Is it the SOS job to decide the legitimacy or any laws or regulation?  I’ve never heard of an agency of a government just ignoring a process because it’s stupid. That opens the door for all kinds of shenanigans across all industries. “Nah, that’s dumb. Don’t worry about it.  Just put down whatever.” 

I think any department and especially one headed by someone that is elected by its citizens, should always question the legitimacy of any laws and regulations and if they are going to enforce them, I would like to think they understand them.