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Now we see one of the fictions you're belching up that helps feed right-wing politicization of COVID. The flu kills nowhere near a few hundred thousand a year. For the past ten years flu deaths have averaged about 35,000 per year, whereas COVID has already killed over 800,000 in less than two years. But as long as the people with fox in their head tell us that flu kills hundreds of thousands a year, they can feel better about politiminimizing the effect the COVID virus has on society. How can COVID be such a big deal, they'll tell us, when the flu kills just as many people and we weren't making people wear masks? Well, it is a big deal because COVID and flu are not nearly equivalent in the number of people each kills. COVID kills ten times the number of people that flu does. And that's even before we contemplate other attributes like COVID's greater rate of transmissibility and the delayed presentation of its symptoms. GTFOOHWTS

I think that it is evident that the vaccines did indeed prevent the majority of peop!e from contracting Alpha and Delta. You could see it in the daily cases before Omicron - the 10% of the population that was unvaccinated was responsible for 75% of the new cases. Now Omicron seems to have evolved to evade the vaccine, hardly surprising. It is possible though that the vaccines still do reduce the severity. All things considered it is pretty silly to suggest that the vaccines "don't work".

300,000 to 600,000 annually is in the world, not just the United States. The second article says 12,000-50,000 in the US annually like chasfh said. but at least your sources are getting better. You just need to read them more carefully next time. Baby steps.

Two Christmas’s ago we got Ernie (Fawn Pug) for the kids, they named him. My wife said some day she wanted a black girl Pug and she would name her Lulu. She got her wish today! Merry Christmas everyone! 🐯

I have some numbers for consideration: USA: Vax 62% of total population, deaths per million 2,500 Canada: Vax 82% of total population, deaths per milion 788

the biggest problem with this view is the technological society. The needed for pooled action is easy to see in the case of crime/security. If the bad guy is young, 6'8" 275lbs and/or has a gun, you want society organized to bring the strength of the full society to your aid. But the idealization the individual can navigate the modern advanced technology market on his own scientific competence, or that the market can manage resource utilization decisions fairly or safely in the absence of accounting systems that actually capture true social costs, idealizations that underpin libertarianism, are fantasies. No individual in 10 life times can gain knowledge of enough sciences and technologies to make only informed market choices, so like we pool physical strength, we are forced to pool knowledge collectively in the form of the regulatory state. Likewise no economy has yet devised a accounting model that forces the external costs (health/safety/environmental) of their operations on corporate actors. Again, this demands the pooling of social judgement on the advisability of economic activities in the form of the regulatory state. It actually is exactly the same case as crime/violence with the same validity. So this is where/why libertarianism agitprop becomes the favorite charity of the robber baron class. The easiest way for the Koch's or Exxon or GM to clear the way for whatever irresponsibilities they are motivated to commit in the name of profit is to proselytize for the libertarian case across the country. When it comes to the libertarian argument just follow the money. When you see who is paying the bill, that should give you pause to understand you are being co-opted if nothing else does.

Merry Christmas to you to Archie. Sorry to hear about your friend and co-workers.

I've never seen so many links to dubious websites.

I might -- if time allows -- start a novel about the Totinos SNL commercial characters and how the Kristen Stewart character (Michael's) and the Vanessa Bayer character (Hobby Lobby) have a meet cute in the parking lot when Kristen's Mini Cooper accidentally hits Vanessa's Honda Odyssey mini-van. Kristen needs to get some paint for her project for her Gender History seminar at the university and Vanessa was looking for some devotional art to help her deal with the frustrating feeling that there might be something lacking in her marriage. Its basically going to be "Overboard" but I don't know which character will suffer the amnesia and be manipulated by whom. Its shooting fish in a barrel to have the conservative character see how her world could be so much bigger if she just stopped listening to talk radio, etc. But, might be more amusing to see Kristen Stewart go into the world of Mega churches, MAGA, et.al., and see how she emerges.

On that note, I am heading to my sister's house for Christmas Eve dinner. Merry Christmas to everyone. Fox too!

Weak comeback. You screwed up. Be a man. Admit it. Otherwise, your post makes no sense. I'll let you choose.

When it comes to COVID, your freedom ends where my respiratory system begins.

If you read Fauci’s comments in the article, they don’t even add up. He has been all over the place from the very beginning.

[Note to self] Don't ask smr-nj what she had for lunch until 2022

Sure, if they do not interfere with someone elses freedom, it's fine. However, since there aren't many things that you can do which don't effect anyone else, that severely limits the Libertarian fantasy.

So you’re saying I now have to track- Americans killed by Trump Americans killed by Biden …..and Americans killed by the vaccine. This is getting way too busy.

Others have refuted your facts. Try harder

Imagine being Fox and thinking that Gehringer needs to catch up to you. "You can't make this stuff up".

Was give given a copy of 'the Dawn of Everything' which looks to be arguing Rousseau and Hobbes were all wrong. I'll let you know if they succeed in drowning the Leviathan.

I read the American Thinker link article. I personally found nothing to contest or label as false information. Good read.

German and Austrian cops will remind you of their grandfathers. German engineering to me means: "how can we make this super complicated?"

He's just another self entitled crybaby...

I made no false accusations or lies. Don't take yourself so seriously. Oh, I forgot. You're a Libertarian. That's what you do! 🙂

Just because it's Christmas and seems appropriate. Just substitute 2021, and guns...

I have seen a couple of commercials based on A Christmas Carol that seem totally screwed (scrooged?) up. The Mercedes Benz one shows the past and present as dirty and filled with suffering -okay. But the future has “him” getting into a luxurious MB and then the camera takes us out into the bright sunny open road. Leave the Cratchet family behind - no Christmas feast for them, maybe some exhaust fumes lingering in the air instead. Scrooge, or any wealthy person can and should wrap themselves in a hundred grand of leather and steel and floor it. Leave reality behind, no lessons learned, no compassion for others, no awareness. Who wrote and approved of that ad? Assholes. Merry Christmas

I don't know what thread to put this in so I'm going to put it here.... I have to go finish wrapping presents then going to visit parents for Christmas. We've also scaled back but have not completely eliminated things. Its just immediate family and not the big extended group. Anyway, I hope everyone can set their political differences aside for a while and I wish all of you a safe and Merry Christmas!

Very sorry to hear of the loss of your friend and coworkers. Yes, I am understanding the Omicron variant is less severe than the prior variants and that South Africa seems to be on the other side of the curve at this point. Welcome back.

I know you all will be shocked. But it appears the exact opposite of what the wingers say may be happening.

Why do you keep blaming the rest of us for “taking or limiting” your freedoms? Do you think we are the government?

I like freedom, but it comes with responsibility. Your freedom should not interfere with my freedom. There are very few things you can do in life that don't affect somebody else in some way. You guys "are not against all governance". You like governance that benefits you!

On this Christmas Eve I would just like to say that in Charles Dickens A Christmas Carol if you thought strident capitalist Mr. Scrooge was a better person before the spirits redeemed him then you're heartless trash!

84, you would have voted to impeach? This is quite the revelation! 😆

I think it's funny when they roll up here acting like they're crushing us..... with the same arguments that last 85 libertarians that posted here used.... before they either left or came to their senses

A Republic is a type of Democracy. Calling us a Republic is just a common Libertarian deflection.

LOL, When did I try to make you conform to my desires? You came into this forum and interrupted a fairly reasonable conversation by posting a lot of lies from conspiracy theory sites and I told you the articles sucked. I didn't say you couldn't continue reading them. YOU are the one telling me how to live my life by telling me I don't belong in America. Who are you to tell me what America should be and whether I should be living here? I am happy let you live your life as long as it doesn't affect my life negatively. In fact, I'd be happy to have you out of my life. LOL

Merry Princemas................Owwwwaaa !

So that damn band played their conference without testing themselves first. I blame Anthrax too !

As a whole I respect the heck out of everyone here. The conversations we have don't happen much in the real world (At least for me). I poke Oblong and Chas but I know these guys are super intellegent and they have swayed alot of opinions I used to carry. I have moved from the right to medium right just by seeing these conversations unfold.

Is COVID Now Becoming a Pandemic of the Vaccinated? - American Thinker Here are more facts for you to ignore. Please don't actually read this. You will have to pick up all your apples as your cart is overturned again. Do not deal with facts, like NY experiencing a worse epidemic after being 95% vaxxed. Simply pull an ad hominem and call this "right wing conspiracy stuff" to AVOID facing the facts.

Raise your hand if your Christmas Eve , and/or Christmas Day plans have been tossed out the window due to an exposure in the family.... (just praying the pcr test, which can’t be taken by my grand-niece until Sunday, comes back negative) 😕

👏👏👏👏👏