Gun Legislation, Crime, and Events

[Motown Bombers]

16 minutes ago, chasfh said:

You didn't say 175 is the target number it within control, in so many words, but you're saying that now, so, OK.

By inference, I take that to mean you think New York City's murder rate is on the high end of being within control, since you used their murder number of 485 as the basis for your determining that if Chicago had the same rate, their totals murders would be at that within-control figure of 175—that is, that's what Chicago would have to drop to in order to no longer be at "out of control" levels. Please feel free to correct me if I got any of this wrong, which I know you always do with particular relish. 😁

By the way, Chicago murder totals haven't been under 175 since World War II or thereabouts, so it looks like by your definition, out of control crime is a chronic condition here. So, better stay away. 😏

A lot of words and no answer. Living up to windy city reputation. 

[buddha]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I will consider it out of control once it affects what I do on a day-to-day basis.

You're right in that I have no interest in crime anecdotes. I'm more interested in crime data, such as the data I posted—which I was criticized for doing instead of, I guess, setting my own hair on fire based on stories—showing that the change in violent crime rate varied substantially by neighborhood. Violent crime is down in Bucktown, for instance, in 2021 versus 2020. I took a metaphorical shot to the kneecaps for that one.

murders up 9% and car jackings up 200%.  

i guess it all depends on what data you want to look at.

[Motown Bombers]

Since it doesn't affect Chas, it's not out of control. Hundreds of people are needlessly getting killed in Chicago so it has to be out of control somewhere? I haven't caught COVID so that means it's not out of control. 

There is always more passion and outrage at the couple police involved shooting but not the 800+ murders. Police involved shooting don't affect my day to day so they aren't out of control. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

Toronto, nearly identical in size, had 84 murders last year which was one of their highest totals ever. Chicago had 836 or 10 times more than Toronto in one of Toronto's worst years. Both Canada and the US fancy themselves as developed first world countries and Toronto is one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world. Even New York, which is almost 3 times larger than Chicago, had 485 murders. Hopefully that answers your question and maybe you will answer then what is out of control? If Chicago becomes Juarez? 

Canada and the US urban areas cannot be compared. Canada did not have segregation in the way the United States did. Separate, but equal, and Jim Crow-style oppression didn't exist in Canada on the scale it does here. Generations of racism, segregation, and oppression we inflicted on blacks and other persons of color is unmatched in Canada.

Canada also doesn't have the level of poverty in their urban communities that we do in the States. Canada also doesn't have the problems with drug addition and substance abuse that we have in America. They also don't have a culture that celebrates guns more than people like we do. Canada also has far better public education systems in their urban areas with far fewer students coming from broken homes.

The systems of oppressions that we setup here through slavery, Jim Crow, separate but equal laws, our arrest everyone policy on criminal justice, drug addiction, lack of mental healthcare, no universal healthcare, no preventative care, failing education systems, broken homes, don't exist at the scale they do in Canada. If we adopted preventative measures to fighting crime like early education, universal pre-k, parenting courses, substance abuse and recovery programs, drug decriminalization, better funded our public schools, mental healthcare programs, and other wrap around services, we could better stem the tide of urban violence. If we celebrated taking care of people and not guns, we could better stem the tide.

Americans fucking hate helping people if it goes beyond opening a door for someone at a restaurant and they hate taking care of the collective and loving thigh neighbor. Our selfishness is second to none among the developed world and is only matched by our ignorance. We love the philosophies of Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Ronald Reagan, objectivism, and individualism, even if we don't know who those people are. The American motto is if I pass a man on fire and I'm carrying a bucket of water with me, I have no moral obligation to pour it on him and put out the fire. The Statue of Liberty should really read forget your tired, forget your poor, forget your huddled masses, that's socialism. When we do help others or try to pass universal welfare programs (food assistance, healthcare, environmental protections, job/skills training, public education) the right and center of this country meltdown and start screaming about how we'll be turning into the USSR under Stalin or China under Mao as a result. They believe that AFDC, Obamacare, Medicare/Medicaid, Medicare For All, universal pre-k, Green New Deal or any other social welfare program are communist and socialist systems of oppressions. These are reasons why the Canadians and Swedes and Fins and Germans and Brits are all doing better than us and don't have the problems in urban communities we do with violence and drugs.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Motown Bombers]

19 minutes ago, buddha said:

murders up 9% and car jackings up 200%.  

i guess it all depends on what data you want to look at.

I'm assuming those percentages are up from 2020 which was already an elevated year. 

[chasfh]

19 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Since it doesn't affect Chas, it's not out of control. Hundreds of people are needlessly getting killed in Chicago so it has to be out of control somewhere? I haven't caught COVID so that means it's not out of control. 

There is always more passion and outrage at the couple police involved shooting but not the 800+ murders. Police involved shooting don't affect my day to day so they aren't out of control. 

I guess I'm a very bad man because I'm not frightened out of my wits at walking out of my house into the lawless urban hellscape that is Chicago, I guess.

Who knows what you want from me here, although I suspect I'm giving you what you really want all along. 😁

Edited January 17, 2022 by chasfh

[Archie]

Are there any statistics on who the victims are in Chicago?  I know there are a lot of murders in Chicago and thought the majority of them were gang bangers killing each other mainly in south Chicago.  

Edited January 17, 2022 by Archie

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I guess I'm a very bad man because I'm not frightened out of my wits at walking out of my house into the lawless urban hellscape that is Chicago, I guess.

Who knows what you want from me here, although I suspect I'm giving you what you really want all along. 😁

All I wanted was for you to tell me what out of control is. Instead, you turned it around on me and pinned me down to give you a number which I provided and now you're doing some attack on me. 

[buddha]

26 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Canada and the US urban areas cannot be compared. Canada did not have segregation in the way the United States did. Separate, but equal, and Jim Crow-style oppression didn't exist in Canada on the scale it does here. Generations of racism, segregation, and oppression we inflicted on blacks and other persons of color is unmatched in Canada.

Canada also doesn't have the level of poverty in their urban communities that we do in the States. Canada also doesn't have the problems with drug addition and substance abuse that we have in America. They also don't have a culture that celebrates guns more than people like we do. Canada also has far better public education systems in their urban areas with far fewer students coming from broken homes.

The systems of oppressions that we setup here through slavery, Jim Crow, separate but equal laws, our arrest everyone policy on criminal justice, drug addiction, lack of mental healthcare, no universal healthcare, no preventative care, failing education systems, broken homes, don't exist at the scale they do in Canada. If we adopted preventative measures to fighting crime like early education, universal pre-k, parenting courses, substance abuse and recovery programs, drug decriminalization, better funded our public schools, mental healthcare programs, and other wrap around services, we could better stem the tide of urban violence. If we celebrated taking care of people and not guns, we could better stem the tide.

Americans fucking hate helping people if it goes beyond opening a door for someone at a restaurant and they hate taking care of the collective and loving thigh neighbor. Our selfishness is second to none among the developed world and is only matched by our ignorance. We love the philosophies of Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Ronald Reagan, objectivism, and individualism, even if we don't know who those people are. The American motto is if I pass a man on fire and I'm carrying a bucket of water with me, I have no moral obligation to pour it on him and put out the fire. The Statue of Liberty should really read forget your tired, forget your poor, forget your huddled masses, that's socialism. When we do help others or try to pass universal welfare programs (food assistance, healthcare, environmental protections, job/skills training, public education) the right and center of this country meltdown and start screaming about how we'll be turning into the USSR under Stalin or China under Mao as a result. They believe that AFDC, Obamacare, Medicare/Medicaid, Medicare For All, universal pre-k, Green New Deal or any other social welfare program are communist and socialist systems of oppressions. These are reasons why the Canadians and Swedes and Fins and Germans and Brits are all doing better than us and don't have the problems in urban communities we do with violence and drugs.

i suggest you should spend some time in other countries and find out how they actually feel about people that arent the same as them.

the united states has a horrible history of mistreatment of non-white citizens (as does canada, btw, ask the first peoples), and no other modern western nation was partially built on the backs of internal slave labor (plenty of other countries were built on slave labor, but not modern countries we like to think of as founded in the western tradition).  the impoverishment of black americans is largely a product of their legal enshrinement as second class citizens and the lowest caste of society.  america has much to answer for in that respect.

that said, the united states today is one of the most liberal and welcoming countries in the world for foreigners and one of the most tolerant societies on the planet for racial, sexual, and sexual orientation differences.  including for black americans.

the united states is extremely diverse, unlike most of the other countries you cite as being so much more advanced than us socially.  when faced with immigration, those societies often return to the base values that pervade most societies of blaming the "other" for their problems and demonizing those who are not like them.  as you can see in the rise of far right parties in europe.

[buddha]

13 minutes ago, Archie said:

Are there any statistics on who the victims are in Chicago?  I know there are a lot of murders in Chicago and thought the majority of them were gang bangers killing each other mainly in south Chicago.  

heyjackass.com will give you detailed breakdowns of the crime in chicago.  where it is, who does it, who the victims are.

[buddha]

1 minute ago, buddha said:

heyjackass.com will give you detailed breakdowns of the crime in chicago.  where it is, who does it, who the victims are.

he's already moved on to 2022.  but so far in 2022, the victims of shootings have been 17 black people, 2 hispanics, and 2 whites.  its gives a neighborhood breakdown too.

there's even been two in chas's neighborhood. 😉

[chasfh]

13 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

All I wanted was for you to tell me what out of control is. Instead, you turned it around on me and pinned me down to give you a number which I provided and now you're doing some attack on me. 

lol at I'm doing some attack on you! Where did I do that? I'm not the one passive-aggressively dismissing the other guy to other people here. Or is asking for clarification considered an attack now?

 

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, buddha said:

he's already moved on to 2022.  but so far in 2022, the victims of shootings have been 17 black people, 2 hispanics, and 2 whites.  its gives a neighborhood breakdown too.

there's even been two in chas's neighborhood. 😉

Was Black Lives Matter around for the 17 black people killed? 

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

lol at I'm doing some attack on you! Where did I do that? I'm not the one passive-aggressively dismissing the other guy to other people here. Or is asking for clarification considered an attack now?

 

Yawn, still won't answer and just deflect. 

[Motown Bombers]

So heyjackass.com is a real website. I thought Buddha was just being a dick. 

[chasfh]

15 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Yawn, still won't answer and just deflect. 

Oh, I see, OK. I thought you were being serious about the attack thing. lol.

Anyway, I did a post saying the only indication I have that crime in Chicago is out of control is from the media telling me it is. I also posted what I personally consider to be out of control, and you had your fun with it, and I'm sure you will again, and that's pretty cool, right?

So what else do you want from me?

[Motown Bombers]

So looking at some of those numbers from that website, I decided to dig into the worst neighborhoods. Garfield Park had the highest total for 2021. I couldn't get an exact population since there seems to be an east and west so I went to Englewood which was second. Per wikipedia, the population is 24,000. That averages to about 250 murders per 100k. Illinois is averaging 257 COVID deaths per 100k. It seems if one is out of control than the other should be. Maybe crime isn't out of control in Chicago as a whole, which I disagree, but it certainly seems to be out of control in many neighborhoods. 

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

Oh, I see, OK. I thought you were being serious about the attack thing. lol.

Anyway, I did a post saying the only indication I have that crime in Chicago is out of control is from the media telling me it is. I also posted what I personally consider to be out of control, and you had your fun with it, and I'm sure you will again, and that's pretty cool, right?

So what else do you want from me?

A number. I provided a number where I would agree it would be in control but I guess you will deflect and talk in circles. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

57 minutes ago, buddha said:

that said, the united states today is one of the most liberal and welcoming countries in the world for foreigners and one of the most tolerant societies on the planet for racial, sexual, and sexual orientation differences.  including for black americans.

the united states is extremely diverse, unlike most of the other countries you cite as being so much more advanced than us socially.  when faced with immigration, those societies often return to the base values that pervade most societies of blaming the "other" for their problems and demonizing those who are not like them.  as you can see in the rise of far right parties in europe.

Let's set aside slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation for a minute and focus more on modern politics. If you do, you will still see that the United States is one of the least liberal countries of eastern/western democracies. We're barley even a democracy at this point. Beyond the fact that we have no universal healthcare we have elected leaders and their followers trying to gut social welfare programs at every turn and think society should be a survival of the fittest. They want, as Dr. King said, socialism for the rich and rugged individualism for the rest of us. Beyond gutting social welfare, they want to strip away voting rights for people of color, immigrated people, and anyone who didn't vote for them. That's what January 6th was about. Not very welcoming to me.

If you collect welfare in this country as a black woman you are called a "Welfare Queen" and derided as lazy and worthless for mooching off the system. As for the person who said that, Ronald Reagan, there is an almost divine like worship of that man and his policies in this country. Don't think Reagan was bad and unwelcoming enough, Bill Clinton called his bluff and did one better. He went out and not only had his racist Sista Soulja moment on national TV, but he proceeded to gut welfare and throw millions into extreme poverty all so he could win some race war to reclaim power for Democrats and himself.

And then we come to the most heinous and criminal actor in modern day politics, that being Donald Trump. Trump and a large percentage of the population who voted for him wants these immigrated people to leave and "go back from where they came from." Trump's family separation policy wasn't exactly welcoming and neither are attempts to make English the official language or attempts to prohibit a n accurate teaching of history in America. All the people that routinely go around telling others to "go back to your own country" or "this is America, we speak English" don't seem welcoming to me.

You mentioned the rise of far right parties in other countries. As opposed to what here? The Republican Party literally attempted an autocratic takeover of our electoral process and the White House. A lot of that was driven my resentment of people of color, immigrants and white people allegedly losing their standing and power in this country. We have a far right party like the ones in Europe you reference, it's called the Republican Party. For every Alexander Lukashenko, Marine Le Pen, Victor Orban, and Vladimir Putin in Europe we match them with Donald Trump, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Louie Gohmert, Lauren Bobert, Sarah Palin, Gym Jordan, and on. We are off the fucking rails in this country. We aren't the welcoming country that we the Statute of Liberty says we are and we claim to be.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[chasfh]

3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

A number. I provided a number where I would agree it would be in control but I guess you will deflect and talk in circles. 

I see, OK. Although you're basically saying here you've already given up on me giving you a number, anyway.

I've never had a number for this. I've never thought about it in those terms.

I believe "out of control" is a subjective perceptual condition, and my subjective perception is that crime in Chicago is not out of control. If I perceived crime here to be out of control, I'd probably be planning to move, because I wouldn't continue living in an environment that I felt endangered me and my wife on an everyday basis.

If you want to believe that 175 is the maximum number of murders Chicago can experience and still be within control, that's your perception. Whether it's based on a calculation you made from another city's number, or whether you're pulling it out of your ear, that's up to you. Although as I said, it hasn't been as low as 175 for some eight or so decades.

But OK, if you want me to put a number on it ... mmm, I don't know, let's say ... 800. Anything over 800 murders is out of control. So if Chicago had over 800 murders last year, it's out of control. If they had 799 or fewer, it's within control. How's that?

Now what?

[Archie]

I highly doubt that any of the killing in Chicago has to do with politics or Donald Trump.  No wonder some things can't get fixed with the obsession some people have on Trump.

I don't know that much about the areas of Chicago but can guess that most of the killing involves gang related or other criminal activity such as robbery, car jacking etc.  I don't see a bunch of people sitting around talking about Biden and Trump and then start killing each other.  It more about money, drugs, relationships, power, turf, etc.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

14 minutes ago, Archie said:

I highly doubt that any of the killing in Chicago has to do with politics or Donald Trump.  No wonder some things can't get fixed with the obsession some people have on Trump.

I don't know that much about the areas of Chicago but can guess that most of the killing involves gang related or other criminal activity such as robbery, car jacking etc.  I don't see a bunch of people sitting around talking about Biden and Trump and then start killing each other.  It more about money, drugs, relationships, power, turf, etc.

It isn't about Trump, it is about systemic racism and the systems of oppression that were created before Trump and compounded because of him and other bad political actors (including Democrats like Bill Clinton). When you have the kind of generational racism, bigotry, and oppression in this country that we have combined with the poverty people face down in America and our general hatred for helping others and giving people a handout when they are in need, you create a toxic environment that is ripe for the kinds of inner city violence we see in this country.

Will TANF checks, housing vouchers, and Medicaid solve urban violence? No, not all at once and not immediately. But when you give people the types of public assistance that set them up for future economic equity and opportunities, you can begin to turn things around. When you put laws in place that push back on the structural racism and systems of oppression that we have had setup for generations in this country, you can begin to turn things around. When people have a fair economic opportunity and a means to get out of the despair they are in, you can turn things around. When you can mend broken homes and put family social structures in place that are supportive of applying yourself, working hard, getting a good education, treating yourself and others around you with compassion, dignity, and respect, will turn things around.

Gutting social welfare programs instead of expanding opportunity safety nets, privatizing public schools, loosening gun laws, banning abortions, stifling economic opportunity, these aren't solutions that will help you climb out of the hole we are in. Better wrap around and support services intermixed with improved education, more economic opportunity, family support systems, gun control, these are tangible things that can work.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I see, OK. Although you're basically saying here you've already given up on me giving you a number, anyway.

I've never had a number for this. I've never thought about it in those terms.

I believe "out of control" is a subjective perceptual condition, and my subjective perception is that crime in Chicago is not out of control. If I perceived crime here to be out of control, I'd probably be planning to move, because I wouldn't continue living in an environment that I felt endangered me and my wife on an everyday basis.

If you want to believe that 175 is the maximum number of murders Chicago can experience and still be within control, that's your perception. Whether it's based on a calculation you made from another city's number, or whether you're pulling it out of your ear, that's up to you. Although as I said, it hasn't been as low as 175 for some eight or so decades.

But OK, if you want me to put a number on it ... mmm, I don't know, let's say ... 800. Anything over 800 murders is out of control. So if Chicago had over 800 murders last year, it's out of control. If they had 799 or fewer, it's within control. How's that?

Now what?

You seemed pretty convinced that the media created a false narrative that the crime was out of control. I simply wanted to know if it isn't now, than when is it? At what point can the media say crime is out of control? When you personally feel threatened? I understand you really don't want to answer it and will go in circles so I'll let you have at it. It seems like you have now begrudgingly accepted Chicago's murders are out of control. I also provided you the exact calculation, it wasn't pulled out of my ear. You seem to be fine that hundreds of people are being killed in Chicago when comparable cities in the US aren't having such a problem. As long as you don't feel endangered though.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Inequality.Org: Ideology, Inequality, and the Safety Net

Quote

 

Of particular note: Canada’s murder rate runs far below the U.S. rate, around a fourth of our levels. For homicides committed by youth, the U.S. rate has been as much as ten times the Canadian levels. Yet Canadians watch American television, log onto American websites, read American publications. Canada even has widespread gun ownership. Countries with more robust social safety networks experience fewer socially undesirable behaviors.

What differentiates us? According to Daniel Friedenberg, the United States is more economically stratified than any other advanced country. American levels of income inequality and relative poverty triple those of other wealthy nations. Friedenberg characterizes the dramatic gap in material equality as “economic apartheid.”

Scholars tell us that developed countries having relatively low levels of income inequality have low crime rates. But in countries where one segment of the population has great wealth while another segment is in extreme poverty, crime rates run high.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[buddha]

39 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Let's set aside slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation for a minute and focus more on modern politics. If you do, you will still see that the United States is one of the least liberal countries of eastern/western democracies. We're barley even a democracy at this point. Beyond the fact that we have no universal healthcare we have elected leaders and their followers trying to gut social welfare programs at every turn and think society should be a survival of the fittest. They want, as Dr. King said, socialism for the rich and rugged individualism for the rest of us. Beyond gutting social welfare, they want to strip away voting rights for people of color, immigrated people, and anyone who didn't vote for them. That's what January 6th was about. Not very welcoming to me.

If you collect welfare in this country as a black woman you are called a "Welfare Queen" and derided as lazy and worthless for mooching off the system. As for the person who said that, Ronald Reagan, there is an almost divine like worship of that man and his policies in this country. Don't think Reagan was bad and unwelcoming enough, Bill Clinton called his bluff and did one better. He went out and not only had his racist Sista Soulja moment on national TV, but he proceeded to gut welfare and throw millions into extreme poverty all so he could win some race war to reclaim power for Democrats and himself.

And then we come to the most heinous and criminal actor in modern day politics, that being Donald Trump. Trump and a large percentage of the population who voted for him wants these immigrated people to leave and "go back from where they came from." Trump's family separation policy wasn't exactly welcoming and neither are attempts to make English the official language or attempts to prohibit a n accurate teaching of history in America. All the people that routinely go around telling others to "go back to your own country" or "this is America, we speak English" don't seem welcoming to me.

You mentioned the rise of far right parties in other countries. As opposed to what here? The Republican Party literally attempted an autocratic takeover of our electoral process and the White House. A lot of that was driven my resentment of people of color, immigrants and white people allegedly losing their standing and power in this country. We have a far right party like the ones in Europe you reference, it's called the Republican Party. For every Alexander Lukashenko, Marine Le Pen, Victor Orban, and Vladimir Putin in Europe we match them with Donald Trump, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Louie Gohmert, Lauren Bobert, Sarah Palin, Gym Jordan, and on. We are off the fucking rails in this country. We aren't the welcoming country that we the Statute of Liberty says we are and we claim to be.

suffice to say, i dont agree with almost all of this post.  lol.

tater, you and i come from different perspectives.  but we can both agree that america has a long history of racism that has created the structural disadvantages that help create the black-white inequality we see today.

at least i think we can agree on that.  🙂