casimir Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Betrayer said: Whenever I wonder how much the team will improve this year I have to remind myself that we're replacing Killian Hayes and CoJo with Cade Cunningham and Monte Morris. Just let that settle in. Killian played 8000 minutes and was one of the worst players in the league by a wide margin. CoJo is a bottom third of the league backup. They also sat or benched Bogie, Stewart, and even Duren for long stretches to end the season last year while rolling out G-League lineups with guys like Omaruyi, Hampton, Rhoden, and McGruder. Not saying they're going to win 35, just that we can't really think of them in terms of their win total from last year when we consider the injuries and intentional tanking they did. I think for some of the "minutes played by" differences that you bring up, 35 wins seems attainable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betrayer Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 21 hours ago, casimir said: I think for some of the "minutes played by" differences that you bring up, 35 wins seems attainable. Last year the 35 win teams (there were 2 of them) were better than 6 other teams. While I'd love to see the Pistons get there, trying to find those 6 other teams is where this gets tough to imagine. If that happens, then I think it'll mean three things: 1. Cade is that guy - He'll have to take a Haliburton-like leap this year and be a fringe All-Star. 2. Another young player takes a huge leap - My bet would be on Duren, since he and Cade will make a nice duo in the Pick and Roll game. I'm imagining a 15 pts and 15 rebounds machine while greatly improving his defensive awareness. A lot to ask of a 19 year old though. Speaking of defense... 3. The Defense has to be greatly improved - We don't have a superstar scorer (Curry, Luka) or an unstoppable matchup nightmare (Giannis, Embiid), so we HAVE to improve from 29th to middle of the pack on defense. That's a huge jump and it means defensive growth from all the youngsters as well as probably trading Bogie to bring in a wing that can defend well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 1 hour ago, Betrayer said: Last year the 35 win teams (there were 2 of them) were better than 6 other teams. While I'd love to see the Pistons get there, trying to find those 6 other teams is where this gets tough to imagine. If that happens, then I think it'll mean three things: 1. Cade is that guy - He'll have to take a Haliburton-like leap this year and be a fringe All-Star. 2. Another young player takes a huge leap - My bet would be on Duren, since he and Cade will make a nice duo in the Pick and Roll game. I'm imagining a 15 pts and 15 rebounds machine while greatly improving his defensive awareness. A lot to ask of a 19 year old though. Speaking of defense... 3. The Defense has to be greatly improved - We don't have a superstar scorer (Curry, Luka) or an unstoppable matchup nightmare (Giannis, Embiid), so we HAVE to improve from 29th to middle of the pack on defense. That's a huge jump and it means defensive growth from all the youngsters as well as probably trading Bogie to bring in a wing that can defend well. Well, if 1 & 2 don't happen, then I just don't know what to say about the results of the restoration or whatever they want to call it. I guess it's stalled or a lemon. 3 is going to have to happen at some point to further this along. Could the Pistons be involved transactionally in the fallout of the Lillard trade? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betrayer Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 (edited) Totally agree about 1 & 2 needing to happen for the restoration to make sense. I'm just not sure it happens this year since Cade just turned 22 and hasn't even played 82 games, and Duren is still 19. That's why I think 30 is more realistic, although I hope you're right and they get to 35. I'd love to see that kind of acceleration of their growth. Not sure if they'll be involved in the Lillard fallout, because that's really just Holiday at this point. But, I think the entire NBA trade market has been on hold waiting for the Lillard trade to finalize. To some extent they may still be waiting on the Harden trade, but maybe you'll see things loosen up and hopefully the Pistons will make a move. I'm hoping they capitalize on Bogie's value and use that trade to move one of Wiseman, Bagley, or Killian. Then again, we're awfully close to media day and training camp, so they may just open the season with this roster. Edited September 29, 2023 by Betrayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted September 29, 2023 Author Share Posted September 29, 2023 Stop me if you have heard this one before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted September 29, 2023 Author Share Posted September 29, 2023 30+ wins wouldn't totally shock me. Not sure its a lock or anything like that though. I hesitate because it is a new coach with a new system to learn. They could struggle the first few months of the season. I still think Cade is set for a monster season. Maybe not make it, but definitely in the discussion for the all star game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 On 9/12/2023 at 4:24 PM, buddha said: i'll believe livers is a bona fide nba player when i see him play a meaningful stretch of games without getting injured. i like him, but i havent seen a whole lot yet. even when he is healthy. bump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 5 hours ago, buddha said: bump point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted September 30, 2023 Author Share Posted September 30, 2023 Livers is garbage even when healthy. Never understood why anyone liked him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted October 3, 2023 Author Share Posted October 3, 2023 I predict he will have the type of year that will make us think his extension was a steal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted October 3, 2023 Author Share Posted October 3, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted October 3, 2023 Author Share Posted October 3, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted October 3, 2023 Author Share Posted October 3, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 well...his out game decision making is now as questionable as his in game decision making. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betrayer Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 On 9/30/2023 at 2:07 PM, Deleterious said: Livers is garbage even when healthy. Never understood why anyone liked him I think it's the archetype that people (myself included) like. We see a poor man's Cam Johnson if he could stay healthy. People talk about how Troy added shooting and defense to the team in the offseason, but those players are mutually exclusive since the shooters can't defend and vice versa. Livers was our only chance at a classic 3&D player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted October 3, 2023 Author Share Posted October 3, 2023 Another reason Bogey should be moved. He can't play if you believe the new coaches comments. I know what people are going to say. We need his shooting! You are not wrong of course. But on a team full of kids, you need to teach them how to play the right way. Build that identity, the team culture everyone always talks about. That probably has more value than putting a shooter on the floor that doesn't defend. It might make this season more painful than it needs to be. But it will pay dividends 3-5 years down the road. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 I think Bogey plays the right way. He hustles on defense but he just doesn't have the footspeed/footwork to hang with most wings. Like I mentioned to @Betrayer I just don't think Weaver is getting good enough offers (any sort of 1st) to warrant moving him. He probably values his experience around the young guys and top notch shooting on a team of non-shooters (the starters in particular) to a underwhelming trade return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betrayer Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 We've heard a lot of Bogey trade rumors over the past year. Who knows what's true and what's not, but it's clear from all the smoke that there are teams who were/are very interested. None of us know what offers he's getting, but maybe the problem is simply that the asking price is too high (2 first round picks) and Troy should have made a move months ago for a bit less than that. Either way, I'll stand by my earlier statements which echo what Del said. You need to build a defensive culture and you aren't winning games giving up the 123 ppg that their worst tandem gave up (Bogey and Ivey). Yet every single day that goes by is the lowest his value will be because he's not getting younger, his usage will decrease, and you risk him getting injured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 I wonder if internally they have a deadline to move Bogdanovich. At this point, do they wait out through camp and see if a team realizes they need more shooting or maybe someone gets dealt a substantial injury? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted October 4, 2023 Author Share Posted October 4, 2023 He is really difficult to trade with that contract. Most contenders do not have $20M to send out. A lot of them do not have future draft picks because they have mortgaged them to build the team. There is a reason we got him for peanuts last year. If I am looking for some shooting, I go after Burks instead. Equally good shooter, plays above average defense, and is half the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, Deleterious said: He is really difficult to trade with that contract. Most contenders do not have $20M to send out. A lot of them do not have future draft picks because they have mortgaged them to build the team. There is a reason we got him for peanuts last year. If I am looking for some shooting, I go after Burks instead. Equally good shooter, plays above average defense, and is half the price. Precisely and that's likely why Weaver won't trade him, because he doesn't want to just give him away for peanuts. What's the point? So why do you think he should moved if he has minimal value? Do you think he's detrimental to the team and they should just get rid of him? Edited October 4, 2023 by NYLion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted October 4, 2023 Author Share Posted October 4, 2023 19 minutes ago, NYLion said: Precisely and that's likely why Weaver won't trade him, because he doesn't want to just give him away for peanuts. What's the point? So why do you think he should moved if he has minimal value? Do you think he's detrimental to the team and they should just get rid of him? The market dictated he is worth peanuts. If you trade him for peanuts it is not giving him away. It is getting fair value. I said previously he helps them on the court. He wins them an extra 2-4 games this year I bet. If those 4 extra wins meant making the playoffs vs not making the playoffs, absolutely keep him. I value playoff time for evaluating players and I think that environment is important for their overall growth. But they are not making the playoffs this year, or even the play in game. So you have Williams screaming at these kids to play defense. Probably at some point he will bench guys for not playing defense. And meanwhile you have Bogey giving up 25 to anyone who can dribble a basketball. You can't build a team culture and instill a defensive mindset in these kids while treating some players differently. Not a bad guy. Not a bad player. It is just a bad situation for him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Deleterious said: The market dictated he is worth peanuts. If you trade him for peanuts it is not giving him away. It is getting fair value. I said previously he helps them on the court. He wins them an extra 2-4 games this year I bet. If those 4 extra wins meant making the playoffs vs not making the playoffs, absolutely keep him. I value playoff time for evaluating players and I think that environment is important for their overall growth. But they are not making the playoffs this year, or even the play in game. So you have Williams screaming at these kids to play defense. Probably at some point he will bench guys for not playing defense. And meanwhile you have Bogey giving up 25 to anyone who can dribble a basketball. You can't build a team culture and instill a defensive mindset in these kids while treating some players differently. Not a bad guy. Not a bad player. It is just a bad situation for him. All fair points but you're never going to have a team full of plus defenders, you need some balance. I suppose the issue is that the Pistons have zero plus defenders outside of Stewart possibly either because they're too young, had bad coaching or are just not good enough at it so Bogey's lack of defense exacerbates that situation but they also don't have any plus shooters in the starting lineup so ridding of him and plugging in Ausar I assume will absolutely exacerbate THAT situation. The Pistons don't have anybody that plays winning basketball currently so it's kind of a tough evaluation until we see these guys get more experience together. I think Bogey's presence is needed to help that along if for nothing else to just have a quality starting level vet for them to feed off of. If they can get value for him then I'm all for making the trade but if it's some throwaway 2nds, I just don't see the point. Edited October 4, 2023 by NYLion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted October 4, 2023 Author Share Posted October 4, 2023 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 Hopefully...there's only room on the roster for one of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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