1984Echoes Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 2 hours ago, Toddwert said: How’s that working out for them? Still the same weak hitting team they were last year There's a name for that: It's called "Work in Progress". That doesn't change the mission statement at all. But it does also involve a very nasty, dirty, despicable word: "Patience". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 6 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: There's a name for that: It's called "Work in Progress". That doesn't change the mission statement at all. But it does also involve a very nasty, dirty, despicable word: "Patience". Well, there is nothing we can do about it, so we have no choice but to be patient. However, I also remember you practically guaranteeing that Avila's plan was going to work and you had our championship team all set up with Wentz and Faedo in the rotation and nine hot prospects in the starting line-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 2 hours ago, mtutiger said: I wrote a longer post about the Rangers above, but last year's club that went 68-94 didn't have the contributions from quite a few homegrown players that it does right now. Their investment in free agency was a bet on their young core... it was risky, there were a lot of reasons to be skeptical, but there was a logic to it... And it is working for them right now. Mea culpa. Bringing it back to the Tigers, would anybody here bet in that kind of way on the Tigers young core? Especially after seeing how the first year and a half of Tork and Greene have gone? ... Do you mean like the 2021 offseason when they signed Eduardo and Baez? So the answer to your question is... yes. The Tigers have already done that. And just like the Rangers last year... everything fell apart and stunk. And expectations were not met. By either team. The difference obviously is that the Tigers kids haven't taken off yet (Greene was starting to but... of course an injury...) and injuries completely decimated their chances both last year and this year... So I still say they need to heal all their kids and find out if they have a base of talent to actually start to contend. We're a year behind the Rangers because of injuries. But what does Skubal become when he gets back from his injury? Manning? Mize? Eduardo? Greene? Austin is done for so it's time to move on, but... Faedo? Even if Faedo gets dropped into the BP does he become something good there? Rogers is back from injury... can he improve his contact rate? Can Tork get to a .300+ BABIP instead of the .255 he had last year and the .277 he has this year? Can he find more power? Can Carpenter continue? When Miggy retires this year does that open up a spot for Malloy? Can Malloy/ Keith/ Dingler cut it against MLB pitching? What about Turnbull? Wenceel Perez? Baddoo's upside (what is it?). What about Parker Meadows? Olson? Madden? Even Jung who's a bit further away? All of these guys we are going to find answers on over the next year+ or so... So it sucks having to hold onto patience during this absolute ****-show. But this team goes nowhere unless there is a successful corps of kids that make it. And FA's won't paper over a 100% failure rate on the kids. So we better hope for a 50/50 success/failure rate on all of these kids or we'll suck for a lot longer than 2022 & 2023... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Well, there is nothing we can do about it, so we have no choice but to be patient. However, I also remember you practically guaranteeing that Avila's plan was going to work and you had our championship team all set up with Wentz and Faedo in the rotation and nine hot prospects in the starting line-up. Correct, no choice. And just because they haven't made it yet doesn't mean they won't. They are still all kids. And yes, I still do believe in them. It's just going to take some more of that very dirty word: patience. And this just totally sucks right now so... I get it. One last thing (IIRC): I think I had Faedo in the Bullpen. A rotation of Mize-Eduardo-Manning-Skubal and Turnbull as 5th starter? Or maybe Wentz? I can't remember... but I definitely had Faedo in the BP. Again... this team goes nowhere without some of these kids making it. So I still believe in them.... but, you know... Here's hoping... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: Correct, no choice. And just because they haven't made it yet doesn't mean they won't. They are still all kids. And yes, I still do believe in them. It's just going to take some more of that very dirty word: patience. And this just totally sucks right now so... I get it. One last thing (IIRC): I think I had Faedo in the Bullpen. A rotation of Mize-Eduardo-Manning-Skubal and Turnbull as 5th starter? Or maybe Wentz? I can't remember... but I definitely had Faedo in the BP. Again... this team goes nowhere without some of these kids making it. So I still believe in them.... but, you know... Here's hoping... Positivity is better than negativity, but it seems like blind faith at this point to think that Avila's plan is still going to work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 As an aside: Jake Rogers has a .182 BABIP this year... Can he NOT get more luck than that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Positivity is better than negativity, but it seems like blind faith at this point to think that Avila's plan is still going to work out. It's not blind faith... I actually DO believe in many of these prospects. And they ARE... VERY talented. But with injuries and actual performances against MLB pitching... progress is not linear. I still think the talent level of "Avila's kids" is at a very high level, much higher than we've had in a very long time. Since the 70's. I don't think we've had this level of overall farm system talent since... yes, the 70's. (Counting the already graduated Greene, Tork, Mize, Manning, Skubal, etc...). It's just that... realization of that talent is... obviously... tricky. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 Best young talent since the 70s...This is probably true, but the bar is low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 52 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: There's a name for that: It's called "Work in Progress". That doesn't change the mission statement at all. But it does also involve a very nasty, dirty, despicable word: "Patience". I’ve been patience since JD Martinez was traded for a handful of magic beans…. I mean come on now its been way to long and there isn’t even a glimmer of hope in the minors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 The AL Central is there for the taking. Nobody is running away with this division. The Tigers were competitive in May and that was with one elite bat and a few good performers. The trick is to add the right players. Free agents are risky. Big investment for one guy who could perform or get injured or just sit back and collect his paycheck while swinging at balls five feet away. I would prefer young, hungry players who want to win. Some could be the guys Avila drafted. Some could come from trades. This year's draft looks promising. I'm happy with the improvements they've made with the pitching staff and the defense. There's room to make more progress in those areas plus baserunning and putting the ball in play. A lot of these guys are not even in their prime yet. In a year or two this team could compete in the Central. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 44 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: It's not blind faith... I actually DO believe in many of these prospects. And they ARE... VERY talented. But with injuries and actual performances against MLB pitching... progress is not linear. I still think the talent level of "Avila's kids" is at a very high level, much higher than we've had in a very long time. Since the 70's. I don't think we've had this level of overall farm system talent since... yes, the 70's. (Counting the already graduated Greene, Tork, Mize, Manning, Skubal, etc...). It's just that... realization of that talent is... obviously... tricky. its 1000% blind faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 30 minutes ago, Toddwert said: I’ve been patience since JD Martinez was traded for a handful of magic beans…. I mean come on now its been way to long and there isn’t even a glimmer of hope in the minors JD is still mashing and a likely all star ⭐️ this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 38 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said: JD is still mashing and a likely all star ⭐️ this year. How’s Dawel Lugo doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 48 minutes ago, buddha said: its 1000% blind faith. No, it's NOT blind faith. If you claim it's blind faith, then what you are saying is that you have ZERO belief in any of our prospects' talent, and that includes MLB kids who haven't taken off yet such as Greene, Tork, Mize, Manning, Skubal, etc... (you have ZERO belief in their talent?), and that you have ZERO belief in Hinch and Fetters, and ZERO belief in the changes that Harris has made to our minors' developmental team, and ZERO belief that Harris can properly identify talent. Leaving nothing except blind faith. YOU may be 1000% blind faith, I am not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Toddwert said: I’ve been patience since JD Martinez was traded for a handful of magic beans…. I mean come on now its been way to long and there isn’t even a glimmer of hope in the minors I'm not interested in ancient history. I'm interested in this year, and next year, and... etc. "Way too long" doesn't mean a thing to me. You know, like a Cornerback. Short-term memory. Whatever has happened... has already happened. Forget it and move on. For peace of mind, I would recommend becoming more like a... Cornerback. And this year and next year tells me that all the injuries and broken prospects still need to be healed in order to create at least some kind of a base for the team to be competitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: No, it's NOT blind faith. If you claim it's blind faith, then what you are saying is that you have ZERO belief in any of our prospects' talent, and that includes MLB kids who haven't taken off yet such as Greene, Tork, Mize, Manning, Skubal, etc... (you have ZERO belief in their talent?), and that you have ZERO belief in Hinch and Fetters, and ZERO belief in the changes that Harris has made to our minors' developmental team, and ZERO belief that Harris can properly identify talent. Leaving nothing except blind faith. YOU may be 1000% blind faith, I am not. I believe they some have pretty good prospects (including some who have already reached the majors) who may develop into good major leaguers. I do not think they have an exceptional group of prospects compared to other teams. I think Avila's plan failed overall, but some of his picks could still be part of a future playoff team along with players who were not his products. I am neither impressed nor disappointed with Hinch. Fetters appears to be skilled. I have no strong opinion of Harris so far, but I hope he does better than Avila. Edited June 11, 2023 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 Well, as I look at it, We are a catcher, 3b,2b,one OF, 2 SPs and a quality DH away from being counted on to cross the .500 barrier to the extent that a playoff spot becomes possible. That is six guys we are short. I expect our next reasonable window to start in 2025. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: Do you mean like the 2021 offseason when they signed Eduardo and Baez? It's honestly a fair point... they did sign those free agents after 2021. But for some reasons, their activity during that offseason is usually discounted or ignored. Probably in large part because of a lack of results and preference for other free agents. But, honestly, seeing how each of the signings from 2021-2022 played out, save maybe Chafin, should be reason enough for skepticism about the idea that free agents alone can change the trajectory of the org. At their current state, at best, they are bandaid. And it will remain that way until, like Tampa or Cleveland or even the big spending Dodgers, they can demonstrate an ability to identify and develop talent from within Edited June 11, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tigermojo said: The AL Central is there for the taking. Nobody is running away with this division. The Tigers were competitive in May and that was with one elite bat and a few good performers. I've said it before, but I still think this was part of the appeal for Harris when he evaluated this job. They are still a ways away from where the team needs to be. But this team isn't exactly competing with murderers row within the division either. And as dysfunctional as the Tigers have been, sharing a division with the White Sox and Royals in particular, I'm not even sure they are the worst org in the division currently. And even in terms of resources, as much people bitch about Chris I (and not entirely without reason), the ownership groups in Kansas City, Cleveland and Chicago (under that dinosaur Reinsdorf) are objectively more spendthrift than the Tigers ownership. It's such an underdiscussed point in evaluating where they stand, imo. Edited June 11, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 44 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I believe they some have pretty good prospects (including some who have already reached the majors) who may develop into good major leaguers. I do not think they have an exceptional group of prospects compared to other teams. I think Avila's plan failed overall, but some of his picks could still be part of a future playoff team along with players who were not his products. I am neither impressed nor disappointed with Hinch. Fetters appears to be skilled. I have no strong opinion of Harris so far, but I hope he does better than Avila. I think I am perfectly aligned with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 22 minutes ago, HeyAbbott said: Well, as I look at it, We are a catcher, 3b,2b,one OF, 2 SPs and a quality DH away from being counted on to cross the .500 barrier to the extent that a playoff spot becomes possible. That is six guys we are short. I expect our next reasonable window to start in 2025. Nobody has 26 stars on their team. A few more quality players could make a big difference on the Tigers roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 21 minutes ago, mtutiger said: It's honestly a fair point... they did sign those free agents after 2021. But for some reasons, their activity during that offseason is usually discounted or ignored. Probably in large part because of a lack of results and preference for other free agents. But, honestly, seeing how each of the signings from 2021-2022 played out, save maybe Chafin, should be reason enough for skepticism about the idea that free agents alone can change the trajectory of the org. At their current state, at best, they are bandaid. And it will remain that way until, like Tampa or Cleveland or even the big spending Dodgers, they can demonstrate an ability to identify and develop talent from within Agree 100% There is no possible way for FA's to cover all the sins of a complete failure in prospect development. So however highly optimistic I may be... I am guessing no one else in here wants a 100% failure rate of all of Avila's "prospects". The more that can "figure it out" and become a component of a future competitive team... the better. So... Do you guys wanna do shots for each... Success? Or Failure of a Tigers prospect? (Might depend on one's view towards getting stupid drunk...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: No, it's NOT blind faith. If you claim it's blind faith, then what you are saying is that you have ZERO belief in any of our prospects' talent, and that includes MLB kids who haven't taken off yet such as Greene, Tork, Mize, Manning, Skubal, etc... (you have ZERO belief in their talent?), and that you have ZERO belief in Hinch and Fetters, and ZERO belief in the changes that Harris has made to our minors' developmental team, and ZERO belief that Harris can properly identify talent. Leaving nothing except blind faith. YOU may be 1000% blind faith, I am not. you said avila assembled a collection of talent that was going to be the equivalent of morris/parrish/trammell/whitaker/gibson. that's blind faith. every time they get any journeyman minor leaguer you say they have talent. youre always saying how great the tigers minor leaguers are. you just say that because its your favorite team. there's no basis for your opinion other than the tigers are the team you follow. that's why its blind faith. i wish i could have that kind of belief, but my experience in observing al avila tells me otherwise. and so far, i am right and you are wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Christian Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 I doubt that the rebuild will be completed in my lifetime. I'm 75 and time is growing short! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dtrain72 Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 I was told the rebuild was over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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