Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 3 Author Share Posted March 3 45 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: This is misinformation. Reports were they were hot on Devon Witherspoon, a CB, at their #6 spot. When he got selected ahead of them, they traded down. There were still other CBs on the board, including one who was nominated for Defensive Rookie of the Year, and they chose to pass on them because they had other guys, like Gibbs, higher on their board. Even when they traded back people were still clamoring for one of the CBs in Christian Gonzalez and Joey Porter Jr and they passed on them for a guy they ranked ahead of him. That's all I was meaning to say by that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 11 minutes ago, Hongbit said: Sure you can and it happens all the time in the NFL. You band-aid a sus CB by putting pressure on the QB. Invest heavily in a front 7 that can speed up the play and your CB’s instantly become much better. PS: "Happens all the time"? Show me a bad CB that was covered up easily by a pass rush. If it happens all the time, then it has to be easy to find, right. I wan to see a crappy CB, who has really good stats because the pass-rush "covers him up", or, he instantly became better. I'm saying you won't be able to find that. A bad CB doesn't get covered up by a pass-rush... He loses his job to a better CB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 2 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: There were still other CBs on the board, including one who was nominated for Defensive Rookie of the Year, and they chose to pass on them because they had other guys, like Gibbs, higher on their board. Even when they traded back people were still clamoring for one of the CBs in Christian Gonzalez and Joey Porter Jr and they passed on them for a guy they ranked ahead of him. That's all I was meaning to say by that. "Other CB's" don't count. You're still not hearing what Holmes is saying. And they didn't "pass" on Gonzalez or Porter.. those guys were SELECTED a pick or two ahead of theirs so they went with their next guy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: PS: "Happens all the time"? Show me a bad CB that was covered up easily by a pass rush. If it happens all the time, then it has to be easy to find, right. I wan to see a crappy CB, who has really good stats because the pass-rush "covers him up", or, he instantly became better. I'm saying you won't be able to find that. A bad CB doesn't get covered up by a pass-rush... He loses his job to a better CB. It couldn’t be easier to find one. Cameron Sutton - Pittsburgh Steelers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Since when has Cam Sutton been a "bad CB". He was a #2 CB forced into being a #1 CB with the Lions. Has nothing to do with the pass rush. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 3 Author Share Posted March 3 1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said: I still maintain that they were going to draft Witherspoon at #6 if the Seahawks hadn't taken him at #5. Beyond that, I think they would have taken Christian Gonzalez at #18 if the Patriots hadn't taken him at #17. Hell, they might have even taken Joey Porter Jr. at #34 if the Steelers didn't take him at #32. They finally put their foot down with the trade with Green Bay to jump New England and take Branch. I think there was recognition that we needed help in the secondary last draft, but the board just wasn't falling how they hoped. There really wasn't ever much behind Sutton and Moseley, and they knew Moseley was coming off an ACL and might not be ready by week one. Why do you think they took Campbell over a guy who was nominated for Defensive Rookie of the Year Porter Jr.? Do you think they had Gonzalez slotted higher than Porter Jr. on their board? My contentions here are a few different things. First, just because we as fans see a need doesn't mean the organization feels the same way or feels it is as pressing as we do. Sometimes what fans see and the organization sees align and sometimes not. Edge/DE/pass rusher is an example of this. Most Lions fans have said we need to get someone to bookend Aiden and help us get pressure on the QB from the opposite side of the field or the interior. Their answer was to stick with and/or resign guys they already have in Cominsky, Harris, Houston, Okwara. My other contention is they have a draft board where they rank players based on talent and fit, regardless of positional need or value. Fans (I know I do) get hung up on positional value and need all the time and then get disappointed when the front office doesn't address it as they feel they should. I think this front office takes the top talent on their board, who fits their culture, regardless of positional need or value. That's why they took Gibbs over Carter, Gonzalez or Porter Jr. when most fans would have done the opposite. I also think they refuse to break the bank or deviate from their plan in free agency to try and address a perceived need. Daniel Jeremiah has mocked us taking a Guard, Zach Frazier from West Virginia, in his latest mock. Let's say the Lions didn't add a starting CB on the free agent or trade market and then went out and took a Guard in the first round. I know fans would be upset if they took a Guard over a CB after not making a major addition at the position. But should they be surprised by this front office doing such a thing? I would argue no because they draft for talent/fit and aren't going to be pigeonholed into taking a guy, or signing a free agent, out of desperation based on a perceived need. Furthermore, with Mosley coming back and a guy in Chase Lucas in the room, they may like what they have a CB. While I do highly doubt they like their CB room as it stands now, it would not shock me if they didn't make a major upgrade at the position. Good thing for us, they are a heckuva a lot smarter and know what they are doing. In Holmes I trust! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 You know you’re trying to defend a bad argument when you find yourself talking up Cam Sutton. Let me add: Marcus Peters JC Jackson My work is done here, 84. Just take the L and move on. It’s a minor point anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 8 minutes ago, Hongbit said: It couldn’t be easier to find one. Cameron Sutton - Pittsburgh Steelers And I'll give you a flipside too: Did Kindle Vildor, or Cam Sutton automatically "get better" when Glenn started blitzing and our pass rush got significantly better the last half of the year? Because... no, they didn't. Sutton was still mismatched against #1 receivers, and Vildor still got burnt on a more-than regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 3 Author Share Posted March 3 18 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: "Other CB's" don't count. You're still not hearing what Holmes is saying. And they didn't "pass" on Gonzalez or Porter.. those guys were SELECTED a pick or two ahead of theirs so they went with their next guy... Holmes has shown a willingness time and again to trade up. He could have jumped the Patriots for Gonzalez if he really wanted to do so. Considering Porter Jr. was selected #32 overall, he could have picked Porter Jr. over Campbell. They clearly had a draft board that had Campbell slotted very close to or higher than Gonzalez and certainly higher than Porter Jr. Whereas I think the average fan would have said they have a serious need at CB and taken Porter Jr. over Campbell and likely Gonzalez over Gibbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 4 minutes ago, Hongbit said: .... Just take the L and move on. It’s a minor point anyway. Sorry... I don't see the loss. Does a good pass rush help a secondary? Yes. Does a good secondary help the pass rush with extra time to get home? Yes. Can a great secondary cover for a weak D-Line? No. Can a great pass rush make a crappy secondary into a good one? No. What I'm arguing is that it's easier to find ways to pass rush and harder to find high-level CB's. There are a LOT fewer high level CB's then there are pass rushers. My argument is: spend money on a CB in FA if you can find the right guy, even if it's big money. And... there's no NEED to spend big money in FA on a pass-rusher because there are multiple ways to find a pass-rush that can be cost effective. Lesser cost FA's and guys in the draft all over the place (just find the right guy, like Houston, or Crosby, or Hunter...). It's HARD to find good CB's. That's my logic and it's 100% sound and correct. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 11 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Holmes has shown a willingness time and again to trade up. He could have jumped the Patriots for Gonzalez if he really wanted to do so. Considering Porter Jr. was selected #32 overall, he could have picked Porter Jr. over Campbell. They clearly had a draft board that had Campbell slotted very close to or higher than Gonzalez and certainly higher than Porter Jr. Whereas I think the average fan would have said they have a serious need at CB and taken Porter Jr. over Campbell and likely Gonzalez over Gibbs. I don't think we're disagreeing here. They may have thought they were covered with Mosely and Sutton and the other guys in the room, plus they drafted Branch. But they DID draft for need because Holmes specifically stated that he drafted those 4 guys with an eye on those guys "helping them make the playoffs". He ABSOLUTELY drafted for need, and for talent. But I think where I am emphasizing a lot and you might not be catching this is... they drafted those 4 guys on a HUGE basis not on talent or need... but on "football character". guys who love the game so much or are so high with leadership capabilities that they can carry a team upwards... I think we're saying the same thing but saying it differently: I don't agree that they ignored the CB position because they were looking at their position needs differently and therefore selected Gibbs, Campbell and LaPorta... I think they loved the talent level of Gonzalez & Campbell close to equally as you say, but put Campbell ahead (and therefore didn't trade up for Gonzalez as you pointed out) of Gonzalez because of his "football character". Leadership qualities, love of the game, whatever you wanna call it. Same with LaPorta versus Porter. It's not as if they're going to ignore the CB position... they're not (hence their trade up to get Branch... who they also loved his "football character"...). They're just hunting the football players they love best (not ignoring position or talent... I mean, they weren't picking a 1st round QB no matter who it was, per what they said... And... it's not as if they are picking a kicker in the top 3 rounds who has great "football character"...). And fill in their remaining needs through other methods (trades, late round picks, FA's...). Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 54 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Why do you think they took Campbell over a guy who was nominated for Defensive Rookie of the Year Porter Jr.? Do you think they had Gonzalez slotted higher than Porter Jr. on their board? My contentions here are a few different things. First, just because we as fans see a need doesn't mean the organization feels the same way or feels it is as pressing as we do. Sometimes what fans see and the organization sees align and sometimes not. Edge/DE/pass rusher is an example of this. Most Lions fans have said we need to get someone to bookend Aiden and help us get pressure on the QB from the opposite side of the field or the interior. Their answer was to stick with and/or resign guys they already have in Cominsky, Harris, Houston, Okwara. My other contention is they have a draft board where they rank players based on talent and fit, regardless of positional need or value. Fans (I know I do) get hung up on positional value and need all the time and then get disappointed when the front office doesn't address it as they feel they should. I think this front office takes the top talent on their board, who fits their culture, regardless of positional need or value. That's why they took Gibbs over Carter, Gonzalez or Porter Jr. when most fans would have done the opposite. I also think they refuse to break the bank or deviate from their plan in free agency to try and address a perceived need. Daniel Jeremiah has mocked us taking a Guard, Zach Frazier from West Virginia, in his latest mock. Let's say the Lions didn't add a starting CB on the free agent or trade market and then went out and took a Guard in the first round. I know fans would be upset if they took a Guard over a CB after not making a major addition at the position. But should they be surprised by this front office doing such a thing? I would argue no because they draft for talent/fit and aren't going to be pigeonholed into taking a guy, or signing a free agent, out of desperation based on a perceived need. Furthermore, with Mosley coming back and a guy in Chase Lucas in the room, they may like what they have a CB. While I do highly doubt they like their CB room as it stands now, it would not shock me if they didn't make a major upgrade at the position. Good thing for us, they are a heckuva a lot smarter and know what they are doing. In Holmes I trust! If he had the cheat sheet of draft picks foresight, ASB probably would have been a much earlier pick in 2021. Drafting isn't a perfect science. I do think they had Gonzalez above Porter, that seemed to be the consensus from what I can remember. I think we tend to agree on more than we disagree, which is usually the case. I think lay fans last year saw DB, DT, and Edge as the three largest holes on the roster. The team seemed to agree about DB, signing Sutton and CJGJ plus drafting Branch, but did not agree about DT or Edge. The lay fans were right about Edge, the team was right about DT. I largely agree about the way the Lions go about it. I think there is some minor consideration for position though. They aren't going to take JJ McCarthy at #29 for instance, even if he's the top prospect on their board. FWIW, I wouldn't be upset if they took a guard in the first round and I don't think many fans would be either. There is always going to be the contingent that is just crazy out-there and thinks we should be starting Hooker, but I don't really pay attention to them... The OL is the most important component to this team, and the entire offense depends on them. I would be disappointed (and shocked) if they didn't address the CB position at all. Moseley is (again) no guarantee to be healthy by week one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 11 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said: I still maintain that they were going to draft Witherspoon at #6 if the Seahawks hadn't taken him at #5. Beyond that, I think they would have taken Christian Gonzalez at #18 if the Patriots hadn't taken him at #17. Hell, they might have even taken Joey Porter Jr. at #34 if the Steelers didn't take him at #32. They finally put their foot down with the trade with Green Bay to jump New England and take Branch. I think there was recognition that we needed help in the secondary last draft, but the board just wasn't falling how they hoped. There really wasn't ever much behind Sutton and Moseley, and they knew Moseley was coming off an ACL and might not be ready by week one. I think they want the best players that will fit what they're trying to do. Carter was a good player who didn't fit what they were trying to do. I think it's encouraging though that when the guy they want (twice) gets taken out from under them, they don't panic. They could have reached at #6 and selected Gonzalez way too early, but instead they reacted, and got us Gibbs and LaPorta instead. They could have panicked at #18 and reached for Deonte Banks, but instead they took the best linebacker in the draft. Likewise with #34 and they got us the best tight end in the draft. christian gonzalez isnt what they say they look for in a corner. he's a cover guy with speed, not a "tough tackler who plays physical with an edge." witherspoon yes. gonzalez not so much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Good news for Amon-Ra’s agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 On 3/3/2024 at 11:41 AM, Mr.TaterSalad said: He's 28 years and this will likely be his last opportunity at a big contract. I would guess he'll want a 4 year plus deal. I've seen projections of north of $20 million per for Wilkins too. These aren't the types of contracts and players we will be signing IMO. I'd like to sign one of the marquee free agents like Wilkins, but I don't think we will be. It's best to lower expectations now, that way you won't be disappointed later. It's not going to happen, at least I don't think it will. People keep throwing big names out there and trying to link them to the Lions, or will them to the Lions I should say, but that's not how Holmes operates and I don't see him as a man that will change his convictions based on the landscape or where the Lions are at in the process. The core will be drafted, developed and re-signed then he'll add guys from outside to supplement the core. I don't see names like Chris Jones, Sneed, Hunter, Burns, Wilkins etc. being remotely realistic. The only way I see a big name coming to the Lions is if it's a guy that's looking to score on a 1 year prove it contract like CJGJ last year. Other than that. I think Holmes is going to stay the course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 23 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said: I still maintain that they were going to draft Witherspoon at #6 if the Seahawks hadn't taken him at #5. Beyond that, I think they would have taken Christian Gonzalez at #18 if the Patriots hadn't taken him at #17. I think these were pretty much confirmed. You can even see the groan in the War Room when Gonzalez got swiped by the Patriots. The trade down occurred right after Witherspoon was taken so it's clear that he was their guy. There were also rumors that they were willing to trade up for Anderson. In any event, and I do think Captain Jack will be a good player, but it was really bad luck that the Patriots stole Gonzalez. He got injured last season anyway but imagine this team long term with Gonzalez locking down one of those corners? So close but so far away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Makes you wonder if they could've still got Jahmyr with the Campbell pick and taken Gonzalez with the Gibbs pick Iirc Brad said a team a few spots below us texted him after the pick saying they were gonna take him so if that is true then it seems he wouldve been gone if we waited but who knows for sure if that text was 100% the truth or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 5 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: Makes you wonder if they could've still got Jahmyr with the Campbell pick and taken Gonzalez with the Gibbs pick Iirc Brad said a team a few spots below us texted him after the pick saying they were gonna take him so if that is true then it seems he wouldve been gone if we waited but who knows for sure if that text was 100% the truth or not. I thought I heard it was the Jets who were interested. They wanted Van Ness and when the Packers took him at #13 they would have taken Gibbs at #15, but had to reach for Will McDonald instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley70 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 50 minutes ago, NYLion said: It's not going to happen, at least I don't think it will. People keep throwing big names out there and trying to link them to the Lions, or will them to the Lions I should say, but that's not how Holmes operates and I don't see him as a man that will change his convictions based on the landscape or where the Lions are at in the process. The core will be drafted, developed and re-signed then he'll add guys from outside to supplement the core. I don't see names like Chris Jones, Sneed, Hunter, Burns, Wilkins etc. being remotely realistic. The only way I see a big name coming to the Lions is if it's a guy that's looking to score on a 1 year prove it contract like CJGJ last year. Other than that. I think Holmes is going to stay the course. The circumstances now are far different than they have been in the first two years. Not only do they have a much better team but they are in a better postion cap wise as well. One of The Athletic's rumor guys said the Lions are looking to add a top flight corner this off season. Personally that is what i'd like to see. If you rely on the draft and the mid level free agent bin it's probably 50/50 that you get a guy better than Cam Sutton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley70 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said: I thought I heard it was the Jets who were interested. They wanted Van Ness and when the Packers took him at #13 they would have taken Gibbs at #15, but had to reach for Will McDonald instead. The Jets just took Breece Hall. Although he has been injured and teams like two backs these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 2 hours ago, NYLion said: It's not going to happen, at least I don't think it will. People keep throwing big names out there and trying to link them to the Lions, or will them to the Lions I should say, but that's not how Holmes operates and I don't see him as a man that will change his convictions based on the landscape or where the Lions are at in the process. The core will be drafted, developed and re-signed then he'll add guys from outside to supplement the core. I don't see names like Chris Jones, Sneed, Hunter, Burns, Wilkins etc. being remotely realistic. The only way I see a big name coming to the Lions is if it's a guy that's looking to score on a 1 year prove it contract like CJGJ last year. Other than that. I think Holmes is going to stay the course. This is how In feel the front office is going to operate as well. I would be surprised, pleasantly so, if they broke the bank and went out and signed or traded for a player like Hunter, Jones, Snead, etc. I think we are looking at the B-tier, day 3 or 4 free agents that can be signed to terms that are more team friendly and are not 4-5+ year, $100 million or higher deals. I think they have a plan and won't be deviating from it, especially in light of the success they had with it just this past season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 26 minutes ago, Stanley70 said: The circumstances now are far different than they have been in the first two years. Not only do they have a much better team but they are in a better postion cap wise as well. One of The Athletic's rumor guys said the Lions are looking to add a top flight corner this off season. Personally that is what i'd like to see. If you rely on the draft and the mid level free agent bin it's probably 50/50 that you get a guy better than Cam Sutton. We'll see and I could be wrong but I believe when he says very clearly that he's sticking with the plan and won't waiver. I like the plan btw, I never liked the idea of chasing big name free agents most of which will get paid for what they did not what they will do throughout the duration of the next contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley70 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 They could trade for one, that was the Rams MO with Ramsey and Stafford. You pay in draft picks though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordstanley Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 21 hours ago, NYLion said: We'll see and I could be wrong but I believe when he says very clearly that he's sticking with the plan and won't waiver. I like the plan btw, I never liked the idea of chasing big name free agents most of which will get paid for what they did not what they will do throughout the duration of the next contract. it would be a show of incredible hubris to think you can ignore one of the NFL's major talent infusion streams (free agency) and still build a SB winner the Chiefs and the Patriots routinely spent significant money in free agency during their SB runs nothing wrong to prioritizing your guys, but when you have gaping holes on your roster at CB and DE, it would be a huge mistake to not use free agency to make your team better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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