The F1 Thread

[Hongbit]

2 hours ago, Archie said:

Toto want the whole grid penalized because they have a bad design.  I heard that McLaren raised their cars last week to stop the porpoising.  That's what Merc needs to do if its a problem for them.    Somehow in Toto's mind if they need to raise their car everyone else needs to do the same.  Not everyone is having the issue.

That is not accurate.   None of the teams spotted any porpoising in the wind tunnel during development since it only occurs at speeds faster than the tunnel can measure.  It became an issue on the new cars once they hit Barcelona for testing.   Every team was surprised by it and all had to deal with it to some degree or another.

The decision this week for the FIA to step in actually hurt Merc. They are suffering the worse than everyone and now they can be forced to make changes to the car that will impact performance.  The decision won't be their's anymore if they want to try and live with it during a race.  

[Archie]

53 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

That is not accurate.   None of the teams spotted any porpoising in the wind tunnel during development since it only occurs at speeds faster than the tunnel can measure.  It became an issue on the new cars once they hit Barcelona for testing.   Every team was surprised by it and all had to deal with it to some degree or another.

The decision this week for the FIA to step in actually hurt Merc. They are suffering the worse than everyone and now they can be forced to make changes to the car that will impact performance.  The decision won't be their's anymore if they want to try and live with it during a race.  

My point is that its each teams problem to fix and it shouldn't take directive from FIA that effects all team.  Some of the teams don't have that big of an issue so they should be penalized.    

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

That is not accurate.   None of the teams spotted any porpoising in the wind tunnel during development since it only occurs at speeds faster than the tunnel can measure.  It became an issue on the new cars once they hit Barcelona for testing.   Every team was surprised by it and all had to deal with it to some degree or another.

The decision this week for the FIA to step in actually hurt Merc. They are suffering the worse than everyone and now they can be forced to make changes to the car that will impact performance.  The decision won't be their's anymore if they want to try and live with it during a race.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szYlGeEx-OE

Good explanation about the design of moving bed wind tunnels, which are the only way to get good data on ground effects. One thing not mentioned is surface roughness. A metal belt  is not going to act exactly like pavement in terms of the air drag along it. Doesn't seem to be any reason you couldn't use various coatings on the belt but no mention of whether that is done.

I noted he said they were "allowed" to test up to 80 m/s, but that the system could go faster. That's 'only' 180 mph.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Deleterious]

They are only allowed to test up to 180kph in the wind tunnel or roughly 110mph.

[Hongbit]

2 hours ago, Archie said:

My point is that its each teams problem to fix and it shouldn't take directive from FIA that effects all team.  Some of the teams don't have that big of an issue so they should be penalized.    

This started as a car performance issue and if it stayed that way then yes it would be on Mercedes to figure out on its own.   After the race in Baku, it became a driver safety issue and that will always be the first priority from FIA and F1.  

[Hongbit]

Big props to Valteri Bottas.  He's driving the hell out of that Alfa    He might be getting more out of his car than any other driver. 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Deleterious said:

They are only allowed to test up to 180kph in the wind tunnel or roughly 110mph.

seems like an odd rule - from the standpoint of safety alone why prohibit testing up to track speeds? You are going to take the wind tunnel data verify a CFD solution and run that up through the full speed regime anyway?  

[Deleterious]

3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

seems like an odd rule - from the standpoint of safety alone why prohibit testing up to track speeds? You are going to take the wind tunnel data verify a CFD solution and run that up through the full speed regime anyway?  

I believe all the wind tunnel rules were to cut costs. Can only have 60% model size. The hours are limited, speed limited, etc.

They are talking about a wind tunnel ban in 2030.

[gehringer_2]

7 hours ago, Deleterious said:

 

They are talking about a wind tunnel ban in 2030.

???!! Interesting logic. Maybe F1 is some kind of engineering unicorn, but in general any/every kind of testing/simulation is cheaper than finding out out you messed up in the final product on the track and have to redo the finished car.

I suppose in a backhanded way reducing the allocation of cutting edge engineering introduces more randomness into the racing outcomes, but maybe in this case as much from the standpoint of equalizing engineering prowess between teams as the expense. 

[Deleterious]

Very interesting about Honda.

The general consensus is that Audi will buy a team (Alfa) and Porsche will build engines for Red Bull.  Wonder where Honda would end up since they just left Red Bull.

 

[Hongbit]

Great news!   Nice bump in fee for Liberty too.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Hongbit

[Archie]

6 hours ago, Hongbit said:

Great news!   Nice bump in fee for Liberty too.

Yup, that is good news.  Its hard to complain about a broadcast they show without commercials.  I hope that continues.

[Archie]

I read this morning that in the agreement that ESPN will carry a few of the races on ESPN plus which I think is their streaming service.  That part of it I don't like because I won't give them any more money.  On those races I will probably sign up to the F1 streaming.  You get all the other races and on track activities for the weekend.  The article also said that Amazon made a strong pitch for the rights and their offer was a little more than rest but they still went with ESPN.

[Hongbit]

$19.99Disney+/Hulu/ESPN+/NatGeo package is probably the best value going in streaming.

[Screwball]

I apologize for being off topic here, but I want to share this.  I'm a huge race fan and I understand and respect the F1 stuff.  Open wheel, high horsepower to weight ratio.  F1 is the leader of the field in every category as far as technology.  That's good for humanity as well.

Then there is the crude version of horsepower to weight ratio.  The video below is from a race last night in ND featuring the World of Outlaws, the dirt track version of F1.  1425 pound cars with 900+ horsepower engines running around a dirt oval. Some of the NASCAR guys run with these guys at times, including last years champion Kyle Larson.

The #17 car goes from 6th to 1st in the last 4 or 5 laps.

 

[Archie]

12 hours ago, Screwball said:

I apologize for being off topic here, but I want to share this.  I'm a huge race fan and I understand and respect the F1 stuff.  Open wheel, high horsepower to weight ratio.  F1 is the leader of the field in every category as far as technology.  That's good for humanity as well.

Then there is the crude version of horsepower to weight ratio.  The video below is from a race last night in ND featuring the World of Outlaws, the dirt track version of F1.  1425 pound cars with 900+ horsepower engines running around a dirt oval. Some of the NASCAR guys run with these guys at times, including last years champion Kyle Larson.

The #17 car goes from 6th to 1st in the last 4 or 5 laps.

 

It takes some talent to drive those. Back in the 70's when they were true outlaws -run whatch brung- a lot of them were also running nitrous bottles.  Like most series they have a lot of rules now and everyone runs about the same cars. I like the old days where they could get creative.  Same with F1 and Indy.

[Screwball]

1 hour ago, Archie said:

It takes some talent to drive those. Back in the 70's when they were true outlaws -run whatch brung- a lot of them were also running nitrous bottles.  Like most series they have a lot of rules now and everyone runs about the same cars. I like the old days where they could get creative.  Same with F1 and Indy.

I also liked the 70s and 80s because of the "innovations" they did to the cars.  It was a fun time, and those guys were pretty sharp.  Nitrous was part of the conversation in those days, but nobody talked about it.  😉

That said, the rule changes made the sport more competitive (and expensive, but that is inevitable anyway).  Today the competition is as good as I've witnessed since I started going in 1968(9).

For example. a couple of weeks ago was the Ohio Sprint Speedweek; 8 straight nights of racing at 8 different tracks in Ohio.  In 8 nights there were 6 different winners.

As far as Indy, I still watch it every year.  To me it is still the ultimate oval open wheel race of the year.  But IMO, they have ruined it over the years.  This year only saw 33 entries, just enough to fill the field.  I remember when the "month of May" had over 100 cars trying to find the speed to make the top 33.  Not anymore.

And the drivers....never heard of many, although some had pretty good resumes, but I could name a half dozen guys who are really good on the tar (asphalt) who I think should be there.  Either not enough money, or they don't have a connection to the money.

All of is has gotten too expensive, but as the old saying goes "speed cost money, how fast you wanna go?"

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, Screwball said:

  But IMO, they have ruined it over the years.  ....

All of is has gotten too expensive, but as the old saying goes "speed cost money, how fast you wanna go?"

I think a huge change - at least in one sense, came with the STP turbine car. It was sort the dividing line where the paradigm was forced to make a shift from auto racing being about doing anything/everything that anyone could figure out to go faster, to "we have the tech to go too fast, from now on it's about how fast can you go within whatever rule set we put in place." That was a shift from one kind of world to another. Anybody could build a car to go faster today - but it takes a ton of very detailed (expensive) engineering at every exploitable margin to get the fastest car inside all of the design constraints. It's a different kind of task than when racing started.

I'm also curious about what will happen to IC engine car racing - assuming IC cars are one day going to more or less disappear from consumer driveways. We didn't stop racing horses when people stopped using them for regular transportation, so does IC engine racing live on as a cultural legacy like horse racing, or do the electric car racing circuits eventually displace it. And of course the constraints of electric car racing seem even stranger.

[Hongbit]

When I lived in California we had great fun watching Speedway motorcycle racing.   Single cylinder bikes that ran on Methanol with no brakes.  They would just slide around the short track.

 

[Screwball]

3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I think a huge change - at least in one sense, came with the STP turbine car. It was sort the dividing line where the paradigm was forced to make a shift from auto racing being about doing anything/everything that anyone could figure out to go faster, to "we have the tech to go too fast, from now on it's about how fast can you go within whatever rule set we put in place." That was a shift from one kind of world to another. Anybody could build a car to go faster today - but it takes a ton of very detailed (expensive) engineering at every exploitable margin to get the fastest car inside all of the design constraints. It's a different kind of task than when racing started.

I'm also curious about what will happen to IC engine car racing - assuming IC cars are one day going to more or less disappear from consumer driveways. We didn't stop racing horses when people stopped using them for regular transportation, so does IC engine racing live on as a cultural legacy like horse racing, or do the electric car racing circuits eventually displace it. And of course the constraints of electric car racing seem even stranger.

I was speaking in general about the costs, and I do remember the STP car.  Andy Granatelli was the car owner, won two I think.  Your first paragraph is what makes racing what it is.  Rules, how to beat the rules. That's where it gets fun (and innovative), which is what I like. Racers are passionate about winning. Technology benefits, as does the rest of us. Some call it cheating, some call it rules interpretation.  😉

When they put a battery in a race car I will be done with whatever sport it may be.

There is nothing like the smell of spent methanol after a 50 lap feature. Hat tip "Apocalypse Now."

[Screwball]

3 hours ago, Hongbit said:

When I lived in California we had great fun watching Speedway motorcycle racing.   Single cylinder bikes that ran on Methanol with no brakes.  They would just slide around the short track.

 

Those guys are nuts, but all racers are nuts.  They are adrenaline junkies.

I raced on a couple of local dirt tracks a few times.  It's all about how big your balls are. It's as simple as that.

[CMRivdogs]

On 5/22/2022 at 9:20 PM, Deleterious said:

I have not heard anything about a track in Milford.  The proving grounds used to be a race track before GM bought it.  And there is a small track in Pontiac near the train station.

https://www.motorsportsgateway.com/garages
 

This is what I was asking about. They just received approval from Howell

[Deleterious]

3 hours ago, CMRivdogs said:

https://www.motorsportsgateway.com/garages
 

This is what I was asking about. They just received approval from Howell

That looks pretty damn cool.

[Deleterious]

Oh no. 

 

[Hongbit]

Carloooooos!   Great run in the rain to claim his first pole.   

It’s about 50/50 for me on his chances of podium vs. another car malfunction.