Motown Bombers Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: It seems unlikely that they both would suddenly "discover" it right around the time Trump was being accused. They both self reported the documents and turned them over. What likely happened is they checked their records after Trump was obstructing and found them and turned them over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: They both self reported the documents and turned them over. What likely happened is they checked their records after Trump was obstructing and found them and turned them over. So, if it wasn't for Trump, they probably would still have them now. I am in no way comparing them to Trump. I am just saying that they broke rules that lower level people probably wouldn't have gotten away with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Just now, Tiger337 said: So, if it wasn't for Trump, they probably would still have them now. I am in no way comparing them to Trump. I am just saying that they broke rules that lower level people probably wouldn't have gotten away with. They didn't break rules. They were allowed to have those documents. Trump wouldn't have broken rules or been charged if he would have just returned the documents. Lower level people would not have been allowed access to those documents or retain them because they don't have the same clearance as the President and Vice President. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 hours ago, ewsieg said: Weird huh, almost like the summary didn't match the report. I mean, no way politics could have gotten in the way and the reason it wasn't pursued. At this point, somebody has to be very dense to support Donald J. Trump. So....carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: They didn't break rules. They were allowed to have those documents. Trump wouldn't have broken rules or been charged if he would have just returned the documents. Lower level people would not have been allowed access to those documents or retain them because they don't have the same clearance as the President and Vice President. So, they are allowed to keep the documents forever? As I said before, it is very obvious that the lower level people don't have access to these documents. I (and I think eswieg) was arguing that they have access to other documents which they are are not allow to share or maintain and probably have less leeway than higher level people. Edited March 22 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: So, they are allowed to keep the documents forever? As I said before, it is very obvious that the lower level people don't have access to these documents. I (and I think eswieg) was arguing that they have access to other documents which they are are not allow to share or maintain and probably have less leeway than higher level people. They are not allowed to retain them forever after they leave office. Biden and Pence returned them voluntarily. Hence why they aren't charged with a crime. Trump did not do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 hours ago, GoBlue23 said: Is Hillary making a claim 3 years after an election the same as claiming the election was stolen before it was even held, refusing to concede, filing bogus lawsuits, pressuring state officials, submitting fake electors, calling your supporters to the Capitol, promising pardons and continuing to spew baseless conspiracy theories 4 years later the same thing? Your partisanship is blinding you from what I actually said. Go back and pretend 1984 wrote my second paragraph and read it again. If you convince yourself 1984 wrote it, you'd love the response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 You have to look at someone's job to understand the reason they would have documents. The higher level you go then the more likely you routinely use classified information. Therefore the more likely it is you would mistakenly take them home or whatever. A low level person who accesses a file system and takes home documents they have no business having and gets caught with will receive stricter punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: They are not allowed to retain them forever after they leave office. Biden and Pence returned them voluntarily. Hence why they aren't charged with a crime. Trump did not do that. Pence didn't even know he had them, he agreed to have the government come in and review and obtain anything they found. Biden had those in his home after he was no longer VP and the report shows he knew about it and even on some he wasn't sure about, instead of confirming first, he shared them with his ghost writer. Many years later, after someone noticed them at his home, his administration/team did the right thing, made it public, and worked with the government just like Pence did to review and obtain. He eventually did the right thing, but stop saying he immediately turned them in once he knew about them. At best, which Hur stated, he's so old he forgot about them but when reminded, remembered that he did have them after he was no longer VP and did not contact anyone to take care of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, ewsieg said: Pence didn't even know he had them, he agreed to have the government come in and review and obtain anything they found. Biden had those in his home after he was no longer VP and the report shows he knew about it and even on some he wasn't sure about, instead of confirming first, he shared them with his ghost writer. Many years later, after someone noticed them at his home, his administration/team did the right thing, made it public, and worked with the government just like Pence did to review and obtain. He eventually did the right thing, but stop saying he immediately turned them in once he knew about them. At best, which Hur stated, he's so old he forgot about them but when reminded, remembered that he did have them after he was no longer VP and did not contact anyone to take care of them. Still going with Hur stating he's too old and forgot? Even though the actual transcripts of the conversation prove otherwise? Just because Biden's lawyers instructed him to say I do not recall does not mean Biden was so old and forgetful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 minutes ago, oblong said: You have to look at someone's job to understand the reason they would have documents. The higher level you go then the more likely you routinely use classified information. Therefore the more likely it is you would mistakenly take them home or whatever. A low level person who accesses a file system and takes home documents they have no business having and gets caught with will receive stricter punishment. because of my previous job, i've taking tons of training regarding documentation. I've never heard anything talk about how it's alright to be more lax with the rules the higher up you are. Instead it's drilled into our head that if any point we're not sure if/how to share information, the support process which will get the right people involved that can confirm how you should handle it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Just now, GoBlue23 said: Calling out the absurdity of you trying to equate Trump with Biden and/or Clinton does not make me a partisan. See if you both sides everything it means you are fair and balanced and everyone else is just blinded by partisanship. Not ewsieg though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) So Biden "forgot" about the documents while Trump would regularly show them off to every Tom, Richard and Ivan. Lied about having them and tried to obstruct their recovery. Two wrongs may not make a right but one of the wrongs puts them in the John and Arthur Walker category. That's at least 25 years minimum in my book Edited March 22 by CMRivdogs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: Calling out the absurdity of you trying to equate Trump with Biden and/or Clinton does not make me a partisan. Still not sure why you keep bringing up Clinton and clearly you didn't read my second paragraph again. I am focusing on one specific issue, the willful retention of classified documents. I'm not talking J6, Georgia, Trump U, 2 billion Saudi fund, or the obstruction that accompanied the willful retention with Trump only, because Biden didn't obstruct. The investigation proves Biden willfully kept them and regardless if he forgot about them after or not, it doesn't matter. If he knew he had them, he should have been working with the appropriate folks to return them. Instead he waited to 'immediately' turn them in 5-6 years later. I've watched so many of you mock Trump about classified documents sitting in some bathroom in Mar-a-lago and how insane it is to think someone could be so careless. Yet Biden has them in the garage of a house he doesn't always even stay in and no one blinks an eye, no issue here, carry on or it's both sides-ing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 14 minutes ago, ewsieg said: because of my previous job, i've taking tons of training regarding documentation. I've never heard anything talk about how it's alright to be more lax with the rules the higher up you are. Instead it's drilled into our head that if any point we're not sure if/how to share information, the support process which will get the right people involved that can confirm how you should handle it. Same here. There is no wiggle room at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: So Biden "forgot" about the documents while Trump would regularly show them off to every Tom, Richard and Ivan. Lied about having them and tried to obstruct their recovery. Two wrongs may not make a right but one of the wrongs puts them in the John and Arthur Walker category. That's at least 25 years minimum in my book Literally no one is arguing that the obstruction that accompanied the initial thing Trump and Biden were guilty of is equivalent. There is a reason why the Trump indictment has a ton of additional charges related to the obstruction he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Same here. There is no wiggle room at all. You should stop both sides-ing and just let me take the heat. 🙂 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 14 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: Now you're trying to conflate the documents Biden had in what he said were his personal notebooks and others that were found in boxes when they conducted full searches of his properties to ensure all documents were returned. Yes, Biden knew about any documents in the personal notebooks and was of the opinion that he was entitled to have them. What you're ignoring is that nobody ever came asking for him to return those documents. Because nobody ever reached out about those documents, Biden never lied about having them, hid them so they wouldn't be found or enlisted others to lie so he could keep them. You continue ignoring about 90% of what Trump did in an attempt to equate the two situations when they aren't even close to being the same. No, you keep adding all the additional stuff that Trump is guilty off and saying Trump, and all his baggage, don't equate to Biden. I agree with that. Always have. -Biden told his ghost writer he had classified documents in his home. -Biden read notes he took of classified documents to his ghost writer and even admitted that it's probably classified. He can claim he thought he could do that, but I can assure you ignorance is not a defense. -The ghost writer attempted to delete those notes prior to being investigated. Circumstantial, but still evidence that even the ghost writer realized he probably shouldn't have them. If you replace Biden with Trump in this scenario and j'm prosecuting with a jury of 12 motownforum politic thread members, you guys probably wouldn't need to be excused to the jury room to hand down a guilty verdict. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 50 minutes ago, ewsieg said: No, you keep adding all the additional stuff that Trump is guilty off and saying Trump, and all his baggage, don't equate to Biden. I agree with that. Always have. -Biden told his ghost writer he had classified documents in his home. -Biden read notes he took of classified documents to his ghost writer and even admitted that it's probably classified. He can claim he thought he could do that, but I can assure you ignorance is not a defense. -The ghost writer attempted to delete those notes prior to being investigated. Circumstantial, but still evidence that even the ghost writer realized he probably shouldn't have them. If you replace Biden with Trump in this scenario and j'm prosecuting with a jury of 12 motownforum politic thread members, you guys probably wouldn't need to be excused to the jury room to hand down a guilty verdict. - Biden, Biden and Biden. Get off that train, it's not the defense you think it is. If you rob a bank, would you go into court and say that other guy robbed 3 banks? It's just a RW talking point. Kinda like Hunters laptop or Hillary's emails. So when it comes out that Trump sold America's secrets to the highest bidder, what's going to be your excuse for that man-child then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) 23 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: All Trump had to do was turn over the documents when asked and he wouldn't have been charged. If Trump knowingly took them and kept them, but once it was discovered fully cooperated, IMO, he should still face the same consequences I would have surely dealt with if I had done the same. Edited March 22 by ewsieg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 13 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: Biden, Biden and Biden. Get off that train, it's not the defense you think it is. If you rob a bank, would you go into court and say that other guy robbed 3 banks? It's just a RW talking point. Kinda like Hunters laptop or Hillary's emails. So when it comes out that Trump sold America's secrets to the highest bidder, what's going to be your excuse for that man-child then? yeah, you clearly have no background on my political thoughts. I never voted for Trump. Since he was elected I have only voted for one local republican who has a history of working with both sides of the aisle and was encouraged to run for the position by a democrat. IIRC, I only voted for one democrat prior to that. He's a horrible person, he deserves to, at minimum, die in jail. But I refuse to not try and keep others held accountable for their actions, even if they only robbed 1 bank compared to Trumps 3 banks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 This looked exhausting. Hope you guys had fun. Trump is a ****. There is no defense of his actions that stands up to scrutiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 4 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: What do you mean "If"? Even Trump has admitted to taking them, claiming they were his to keep. The difference here is that we have NARA reaching out multiple times telling him they were not his to keep. As for consequences, I don't think it's fair to argue that a President and some low level employee are going to receive the same scrutiny and consequences when it comes to their handling of classified documents. Well if it's not fair to a President to subject them to the rules and regulations of classified docs, then NARA should have never bothered him in the first place and ignored it. My "if" was stating that "if" that scenario happened, I still think he should be held accountable, but apparently I should just understand that our leaders don't have to be subject to the same laws as us low level citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Trump fans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 More from the Trumpian Oligarchs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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