chasfh Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: Meh, independents love that bipartisanship. It's not going to shake up the election but it could be won or lost on the edges. True as this may be, pursuant to my edit after you posted this, George Bush Jr. is not the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 (edited) 2 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said: the goal is not to talk to MAGA; there are a huge number of reachable republicans; it is about getting just a million, or even half a million people over 8 states to not vote of Trump; that would be impactful True though this may be, given how invisible George has been for 15 years, I don't think he's the guy. Edited March 29 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 Forget Clinton's terrible record on policy, in the wake of Me Too I have a real hard time trotting Bill Clinton out there still in the public spotlight and embracing him. We believe Dr. Blasey Ford and E. Jean Carrol but we dismiss Paula Jones, Juanita Broadrick, and Kathleen Willey? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 You can be as upset as you want to be... But there are millions and millions of Democrats who absolutely love Bill Clinton. So yes... your BC3 get dismissed... whether that is defensible or indefensible... it's reality. Smart play to put Clinton out there, at least a little, to generate that Dem enthusiasm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 17 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Forget Clinton's terrible record on policy, in the wake of Me Too I have a real hard time trotting Bill Clinton out there still in the public spotlight and embracing him. We believe Dr. Blasey Ford and E. Jean Carrol but we dismiss Paula Jones, Juanita Broadrick, and Kathleen Willey? **** me, more purity contests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: **** me, more purity contests. What's wrong with acknowledging the plight of women that Bill Clinton allegedly took advantage of in a position of power and violated? How about we just leave Bill Clinton at home and don't trot an alleged sexual deviant and rapist out in the public eye anymore? If one of our core arguments as Democrats against Donald Trump is that he is a convicted rapist then I don't think we should used an alleged rapist on the campaign trail stumping for the guy we want in Joe Biden. It makes us look hypocritical and bad to embrace a guy who has rape and sexual misconduct allegations against him while criticizing the other guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted March 29 Author Share Posted March 29 fyi, dude's literally running a purity contest in the gaza thread. Just more trolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: What's wrong with acknowledging the plight of women that Bill Clinton allegedly took advantage of in a position of power and violated? How about we just leave Bill Clinton at home and don't trot an alleged sexual deviant and rapist out in the public eye anymore? If one of our core arguments as Democrats against Donald Trump is that he is a convicted rapist then I don't think we should used an alleged rapist on the campaign trail stumping for the guy we want in Joe Biden. It makes us look hypocritical and bad to embrace a guy who has rape and sexual misconduct allegations against him while criticizing the other guy. We are facing the most consequential election in our lifetime. Our democracy is in peril. Anyone voting and supporting Joe Biden is an ally. I don't give a **** if it is Bill Clinton, Liz Cheney, or Hanibal Lecter. Enough of these purity contests. We did them in 2016 and it has done great damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 Just now, pfife said: fyi, dude's literally running a purity contest in the gaza thread. Just more trolling. Ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 15 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: But there are millions and millions of Democrats who absolutely love Bill Clinton. I'm not one of them, but I have no argument with the political strategy. Images of continuity with 30 yrs of history/tradition is a good tack if many of the people you need to sway are anxious about a society with too much change too fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: We are facing the most consequential election in our lifetime. Our democracy is in peril. Anyone voting and supporting Joe Biden is an ally. I don't give a **** if it is Bill Clinton, Liz Cheney, or Hanibal Lecter. Enough of these purity contests. We did them in 2016 and it has done great damage. Acknowledging the plight of women who were violated by a man in a position of power, first as Attorney General, then as Governor, then as President, is not a purity contest. Acknowledging alleged victims of rape and sexual misconduct is not a purity contest. Acknowledging the plight of a 20 year old intern who was taken advantage of by the President of the United State and made to do sexual favors with a cigar is not a purity contest. We can win this election without looking hypocritical. We can win it without trotting out a man who has himself allegedly violated women. If one of our core arguments against Trump is acknowledging what he did to E. Jean Carroll, then I just don't believe putting Bill Clinton out there on the campaign trail is the right look for us. If Bill Clinton never made another public appearance for Joe Biden again it wouldn't sway this election away from Biden. Clinton is a bad person, who, allegedly, did bad things to women. That bothers me and I don't care to see him out on the campaign trail for Democrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 14 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I'm not one of them, but I have no argument with the political strategy. Images of continuity with 30 yrs of history/tradition is a good tack if many of the people you need to sway are anxious about a society with too much change too fast. Do you think it is a bad look though for Democrats to both embrace the allegations from and story of E. Jean Carroll while not acknowledging all the women Clinton allegedly violated while in positions of power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 It's been acknowledged for decades. He was impeached over it. Purity contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 Then stop using him on the campaign trail and tell him to go home. It's really that simple. Joe Biden and Biden's political team could easily tell Clinton to not be out there on the campaign trail for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Do you think it is a bad look though for Democrats to both embrace the allegations from and story of E. Jean Carroll while not acknowledging all the women Clinton allegedly violated while in positions of power? Back in the day it would’ve but I’m not sure hypocrisy matters any more in modern politics. The Orange Grifter and his old FoxNews pals numbed any outrage by the massive volume of instances where they’ve embraced an allegation that they had previously shunned the other side for doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 Al Gore lost the 2000 election because he distanced himself from Clinton. He picked Lieberman as his running mate because he was the one Democrat critical of Clinton. At least he won his purity contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 15 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Then stop using him on the campaign trail and tell him to go home. It's really that simple. Joe Biden and Biden's political team could easily tell Clinton to not be out there on the campaign trail for him. This was a fundraiser and not a campaign stop. The Clintons are still powerful fundraisers. This is all hands on deck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Do you think it is a bad look though for Democrats to both embrace the allegations from and story of E. Jean Carroll while not acknowledging all the women Clinton allegedly violated while in positions of power? It's a calculation. I was going to say that the Biden campaign is not under obligation to re-adjudicate the judgment of the majority of the American public that voted for Clinton - but LOL - I just looked it up and he never won a majority of the vote. He was a plurality winner in both elections thanks to Perot; though he almost made it a majority in '96 with 49.2%. Be that irony as it may, I'll stand by the point. It's really the same reason GOP candidates can't quit Trump, their voters love him. It's easy for us on the other side to say they need to have some backbone and run away from him, but most of them understand if they did that they might as well not run - their voters are where the voters are. We can, and should, blame a generation or two of GOP leaders and strategists for helping to product the current electorate (along with Murdoch of course), but that doesn't change what a GOP candidate faces in the present tense. But back to the other side, I would note that Hillary won the popular vote still married to Bill. I don't remember her "me too" sector voters lobbying her to divorce him before she ran. So ultimately no, I don't think Biden is worried about blowback from being on stage with BC. As MB notes, there is a hierarchy of concerns and Bill still has a lot of fans among the people whose top of the memo concerns align for Biden. On the other hand, you won't see him asked to take any other role either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: This was a fundraiser and not a campaign stop. The Clintons are still powerful fundraisers. This is all hands on deck. If you want to beat the most corrupt political grifter in history then it’s probably not a bad idea to employ the use of the 2nd most corrupt political grifter(s) in history. Edited March 29 by Hongbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 3 minutes ago, Hongbit said: If you want to beat the most corrupt political grifter in history then it’s probably not a bad idea to employ the use of the 2nd most corrupt political grifter(s) in history. Ha! I've always been conflicted about Clinton on a lot of levels. It's pretty clear there was a fair amount of petty financial grift going on in Arkansas, albeit that may have been normal for the place and time. I don't really remember that that carried into his presidency like it has with Trump. Clinton's bigger problem was that he was just co-opted by the really big US economic interests into falling for what became the 'new democratic' economic theory i.e. globalism and comparative advantage - republicanism lite (much of which Biden is trying to reverse). And I've said before he absolutely should have been removed from office for lying under oath. We can criticize Gore for trying to separate himself but the Dems left him in an untenable position. He was going to lose people either way he went on Clinton. If they'd just made him the incumbent his chances would have been way better! 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Ha! I've always been conflicted about Clinton on a lot of levels. It's pretty clear there was a fair amount of petty financial grift going on in Arkansas, albeit that may have been normal for the place and time. I don't really remember that that carried into his presidency like it has with Trump. Clinton's bigger problem was that he was just co-opted by the really big US economic interests into falling for what became the 'new democratic' economic theory i.e. globalism and comparative advantage - republicanism lite (much of which Biden is trying to reverse). And I've said before he absolutely should have been removed from office for lying under oath. We can criticize Gore for trying to separate himself but the Dems left him in an untenable position. He was going to lose people either way he went on Clinton. If they'd just made him the incumbent his chances would have been way better! 😉 Clinton was very popular when he left office. It was among his highest approval ratings ever. Gore would not have lost voters if he didn't distance himself from Clinton. This is the Gallup polling. He had one of the highest approval ratings of any outgoing president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 9 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Ha! I've always been conflicted about Clinton on a lot of levels. It's pretty clear there was a fair amount of petty financial grift going on in Arkansas, albeit that may have been normal for the place and time. I don't really remember that that carried into his presidency like it has with Trump. Clinton's bigger problem was that he was just co-opted by the really big US economic interests into falling for what became the 'new democratic' economic theory i.e. globalism and comparative advantage - republicanism lite (much of which Biden is trying to reverse). And I've said before he absolutely should have been removed from office for lying under oath. We can criticize Gore for trying to separate himself but the Dems left him in an untenable position. He was going to lose people either way he went on Clinton. If they'd just made him the incumbent his chances would have been way better! 😉 I am mainly speaking about what they did outside of the office. The Clinton Foundation was a full on money grab under the guise of helping people in developing countries. The amount of money they got rich people and their companies to pay for access to the Clinton’s was astounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: This is the Gallup polling. He had one of the highest approval ratings of any outgoing president. Maybe they approved that he was outgoing.... (the best numbers do come after the election was over. And 40% negatives isn't that great for a somewhat less polarized era than today.) Edited March 29 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 According to the Charity Watchdog, 76% of donations to the Clinton Foundation goes to charity and it has a B+ rating but whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Maybe they approved that he was outgoing.... Just about his entire 2nd term he was above 50%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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