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09/16/2022 7:10 EDT Chicago White Sox at Detroit Tigers


casimir
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From the department of Lemonade Out Of Lemons:

A lot has been made about how much the Tigers have been shut out this season, and rightfully so. It’s beyond embarrassing.

But if we widen out the lens to include all games of scoring either one or zero runs … well, yeah, it’s bad because we are still in the worst 7% of all teams in history. No amount of lipstick can make that pig look better.

But, so far, anyway, we are not even the worst at that this season. We have had 41 games in which we have scored zero or one runs, but this year’s Oakland A’s have had 42 such games. Meaning that when it comes strictly to scoring one or fewer runs, the A’s have a worse offense than we.

Little victories where we can find them …

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dylan cease: 14-7, 2.16 era, 189 era+

eloy jimenez: 311/377/508, 148 ops+

***

franklin perez: 0-4, 9.89 era in rookie ball.

jake rogers: injured

daz cameron: 219/286/344 in detroit

no, i will never let it go how al avila screwed this team with the verlander trade.

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31 minutes ago, theroundsquare said:

I don't disagree, but what is the comparison to these particular guys?  Where they offered instead of Rogers-Perez-Cameron?

they were traded for quintana in the same off season.  white sox struck early while the tigers were still dithering about whether to deal him, iirc.

look, part of it was theo mishandling the cubs' prospects.  lets remember, theo traded candy and paredes for justin wilson.  he's the only gm who al could beat in a trade (although castellanos worked out well for 1/2 season with chicago).  when they dealt for quintana, verlander was just starting to round into form.  but i know there were discussions about him going to the cubs at the time, and it would have been for eloy at a minimum.

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22 minutes ago, buddha said:

they were traded for quintana in the same off season.  white sox struck early while the tigers were still dithering about whether to deal him, iirc.

I think that will be Al's basic epitaph. The right instincts but inability to commit to making the decision when it needs to be made. That impacted his ability to trade, to cut bait on players who were/are deadwood and because of that, blocking/missing better players that actually were in the system. All follow from the same lack of timeliness in the  decision process.

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When the Cubs traded for Quintana Verlander was still seen as broken.  His peripherals were taking a nosedive in early 2017 vs. 2016. That was in the midst where he was having a hard time breaking 93mph on the gun and couldn't generate whiffs to save his life. 

In fact the start before the quintana trade Verlander didn't register a single strikeout for the first time in his career. Of course right after that trade and the All Star break he started to find himself again but by that point it was too late, atleast with the Cubs.

Edited by RandyMarsh
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Again not sticking up for the JV return but I think there is alot of revisionist history that goes on with him at that time. 

When rumors circulated about the Yankees being interested guys like Michael Kay when on the NY airwaves saying that they wouldn't touch him with a 10ft pole especially given the contract. FG published an article saying he was untradeable unless we ate half the deal and even then we'd be lucky to get even a single good prospect in return.  

It wasn't until after the non waiver deadline where he really looked back from a results and stuff perspective and by then all the teams on his trade list moved on to different options. Still though they didn't HAVE to trade him, they couldve waited till the offseason or next deadline if they weren't happy with the return.

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3 hours ago, buddha said:

dylan cease: 14-7, 2.16 era, 189 era+

eloy jimenez: 311/377/508, 148 ops+

***

franklin perez: 0-4, 9.89 era in rookie ball.

jake rogers: injured

daz cameron: 219/286/344 in detroit

no, i will never let it go how al avila screwed this team with the verlander trade.

f'ing unreal.  I said at the time that I hated the trade for every reason I could think of, principally because I thought trading JV was a stupid idea that was doomed to fail.

I don't think that the lousy results are based on bad injury luck either.  An 18 year old pitcher has a strong potential to get injured before making the big leagues, and even if you consider Rogers' injury to be unlucky, he and Daz and Perez could NEVER have been considered even a marginal return for JV.

Just terrible, terrible, terrible.  Terrible strategy to firesale and tank for 4+ years, terrible tactic to trade JV for the kind of return they apparently sought, and terrible mismatch between what was given and what was received.

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1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

Again not sticking up for the JV return but I think there is alot of revisionist history that goes on with him at that time. 

When rumors circulated about the Yankees being interested guys like Michael Kay when on the NY airwaves saying that they wouldn't touch him with a 10ft pole especially given the contract. FG published an article saying he was untradeable unless we ate half the deal and even then we'd be lucky to get even a single good prospect in return.  

It wasn't until after the non waiver deadline where he really looked back from a results and stuff perspective and by then all the teams on his trade list moved on to different options. Still though they didn't HAVE to trade him, they couldve waited till the offseason or next deadline if they weren't happy with the return.

The media and FG chatter notwithstanding, JV was surging when he was traded, and if the proposed returns didn't represent his potential return to greatness, that's on AA for settling for whatever he could get at that time.

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1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

When the Cubs traded for Quintana Verlander was still seen as broken.  His peripherals were taking a nosedive in early 2017 vs. 2016. That was in the midst where he was having a hard time breaking 93mph on the gun and couldn't generate whiffs to save his life. 

In fact the start before the quintana trade Verlander didn't register a single strikeout for the first time in his career. Of course right after that trade and the All Star break he started to find himself again but by that point it was too late, atleast with the Cubs.

It might have been too late WRT to the Cubs but that should not have foreclosed the possibility for a return a whole hell of a lot closer to what the White Sox claimed.

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I believe the Cubs were rumored to have interest in Fulmer  at the time Quintana was traded. Not sure if they would preferred Fulmer over Quintana, or AA decided not trade him.

I do remember lots of discussion on this board about whether or not Fulmer should be traded with most arguing for hanging on to him.

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Javy up over .850 OPS this month, third month this season over .800 so he's had stretches of great play it's just that when he was bad he was REALLY bad. This is very Porcelloish but if you throw out his disastrous May where he had a .432 OPS he'd be over .750 OPS for the season which considering the environment would be well above league average. Hopefully next year his disastrous stretch will be better in which case he could finish above league average offensively.

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6 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Javy up over .850 OPS this month, third month this season over .800 so he's had stretches of great play it's just that when he was bad he was REALLY bad. This is very Porcelloish but if you throw out his disastrous May where he had a .432 OPS he'd be over .750 OPS for the season which considering the environment would be well above league average. Hopefully next year his disastrous stretch will be better in which case he could finish above league average offensively.

438 BABIP....I still think he looks like a slightly below average hitter going forward and a mediocre defensive SS, maybe above average 2Bman.

I don't think he's going to be an above average player on either side of the ball as a SS.  

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  • IdahoBert changed the title to 09/16/2022 7:10 EDT Chicago White Sox at Detroit Tigers

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