1984Echoes Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 22 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Occam razor says it's the Russians... Personally, I don't think it's the Russians at all. It's anti-Russians IMO... although I don't know if that means a Ukrainian saboteur team, or anti-Russian Germans or other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 24 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Occam razor says it's the Russians and it's meant to be a threat to the new Norwegian pipeline. But if that's true is also means that Putin's regime is committed to a program from which there will be no way back into the civilized order of nations - pretty much ever ( that being the circumstance under which the pipelines have lost their value to Russia). As much as that was already practically true because of Ukraine, there was at least an internal Russian fiction that Ukraine was an internal issue. Start attacking 3rd party nation infrastructure and that's the end of that. Just another case where Putin's interpretation of Russia's future is increasingly at odds with his population's. Also... If Russia ever wanted to go back to Europe with gas... their hope now lies in existing Ukrainian pipelines. It now benefits Russia to take over all of Ukraine (which they can't do), NOT use nukes in Ukraine (self-explanatory), or make a quick end to this war and negotiate some kind of settlement. The question here is who benefits the most from this new reality...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 And my answer to that is: Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 41 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: And my answer to that is: Ukraine. the logic is good enough, but it seems like a reach for Ukrainian capabilities - it would also mean the Ukrainians are basically writing off Germany as a useful ally - which I could believe..... They said 70 meters of water, which is about 230 feet. A diver can reach that on Trimix, but it would be a long decompression, more like the kind of thing you'd do from a submarine otherwise you'll be seen loitering there. It would be easy enough to drop a depth charge from the surface but water being as dense as it is you'd have to have it come pretty close to work. Some kind of autonomous ROV that placed a charge would be my guess as most likely. Swedes say the explosions were big, which might argue it wasn't anything a diver could manage. I imagine some one is going to get a submersible down there quickly and the litter is going to yield up the true story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 Yeah, I don't think it actually was the Ukrainians either... I just didn't want to exclude them just yet... But I do think it's Ukraine that benefits - potentially - always dependent on what (knee) jerk reaction we get from Putin... So... possibly... "Friends of Ukraine"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 This is not disproving that NATO think that Russia did this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 (edited) This is an amusing twitter feed Edited September 28, 2022 by romad1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 This is a solid comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 "Putin is sending you to die over in Ukraine... errr... Novo-Russiya... And you're going to like it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 I wonder what percentage of Russians want Putin dead. You know, if they could be honest. The rest of the world just needs to band together and end him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 This guy is extremely lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 This seems like somebody is trying to dirty up Prigozhin in order to get him out of Putin's line of succession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 On 9/27/2022 at 8:26 AM, Motor City Sonics said: While Snowden did bring up some good points about our own government spying on us, anyone with half a brain already knew they were doing that and there was no way they'd have that kind of technology without using it. But other than that, he can go fuck off and die with Putin. Hope they both die an agonizing death. I know I'm about the only one that is somewhat sympathetic to Snowden on this site, but this is a horrible reasoning. Because most people could reasonably speculate that the government does something it shouldn't, it's alright? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 I think the Snowden thing, not him, but his situation, is an enigma for many because they have to think about what "side" they are on and who agrees with him and who doesn't before knowing what to say. There's a little bit for everyone there. Who wants to grind whose ax? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 The funny thing about Snowden is that even with all the help, Russia is getting its ass handed to them on the battlefield. Now Russia was able to f around in our political system for a few years before anyone noticed the rot. A lot of that had to do with us not really thinking Russia was a threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 40 minutes ago, romad1 said: The funny thing about Snowden is that even with all the help, Russia is getting its ass handed to them on the battlefield. Now Russia was able to f around in our political system for a few years before anyone noticed the rot. A lot of that had to do with us not really thinking Russia was a threat. I'm a little lost on Snowden's role in your statement here. Are you claiming that by Snowden leaking classified information about the US illegally monitoring it's own citizens, he helped Russia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 53 minutes ago, ewsieg said: I'm a little lost on Snowden's role in your statement here. Are you claiming that by Snowden leaking classified information about the US illegally monitoring it's own citizens, he helped Russia? I'm sorry. Did you miss that Snowden committed espionage by providing the Russians with sources and methods? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 Truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 16 minutes ago, romad1 said: I'm sorry. Did you miss that Snowden committed espionage by providing the Russians with sources and methods? Apparently so. He claims he destroyed all the information he had and took nothing with him and that he refused to give any information to Russia in exchange for asylum. Is the US refuting that, formally? I just pulled up a few old articles and again it seems like the espionage charge is in relation to the surveillance program. Is it tied together or a separate issue in regards to Russia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 Yes this does say it all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 1 hour ago, ewsieg said: Apparently so. He claims he destroyed all the information he had and took nothing with him and that he refused to give any information to Russia in exchange for asylum. I'm not clear as to why Snowden's claim should be accepted at face value. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 took a minute but here we are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 17 minutes ago, mtutiger said: I'm not clear as to why Snowden's claim should be accepted at face value. Wikipedia lists him as a "Consultant" Well, now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) It's looking more like it really was Russia that destroyed their own Nordstream pipelines. Not certain what they're thinking... it's an extremely stupid move. Now all we need to do is have Germany call an Article 4 and get the ball rolling to start a NATO discussion on what they need to actually be doing with regards to Russian belligerence. Edited September 29, 2022 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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