Week Three: Detroit Lions (1-1) @ Minnesota Vikings (1-1)

[Mr.TaterSalad]

I don't want to jump on Brad Holmes and go crazy over this too early in his tenure as GM, but feel it needs to at least be pointed out. His 2nd and 3rd round picks haven't contributed a thing yet to this team. I remember how excited everyone in the front office was was and how allegedly disappointed the Eagles were when we drafted Alim McNeill in 2021. I remember Holmes wanting to trade up into the first to go and get Levi Onwuzurike. Between Onwuzurike, Paschal, McNeill, and Kirby Joseph, we haven't got anything of substance out of any of these players.

Onwuzurike and Pascal haven't even seen the field and I don't recall that Joseph has either, which is fine I suppose since they have Walker and Elliott. But McNeill, he has 4 total tackles this year, zero sacks, zero hurries, and hasn't looked like he's going to be a dominate run stopper along the line.

It's too early to write any of these guys off or Brad Holmes for drafting them. That said, it might be the strart of a trend of inactivity and lackluster play.

[Motor City Sonics]

28 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I don't want to jump on Brad Holmes and go crazy over this too early in his tenure as GM, but feel it needs to at least be pointed out. His 2nd and 3rd round picks haven't contributed a thing yet to this team. I remember how excited everyone in the front office was was and how allegedly disappointed the Eagles were when we drafted Alim McNeill in 2021. I remember Holmes wanting to trade up into the first to go and get Levi Onwuzurike. Between Onwuzurike, Paschal, McNeill, and Kirby Joseph, we haven't got anything of substance out of any of these players.

Onwuzurike and Pascal haven't even seen the field and I don't recall that Joseph has either, which is fine I suppose since they have Walker and Elliott. But McNeill, he has 4 total tackles this year, zero sacks, zero hurries, and hasn't looked like he's going to be a dominate run stopper along the line.

It's too early to write any of these guys off or Brad Holmes for drafting them. That said, it might be the strart of a trend of inactivity and lackluster play.

The 2nd Round has always been a problem for the Lions.   A few have worked like Louis Delmas and D'Andre Swift.   They knew they might have to wait on Paschal and they like Joseph and were probably planning on him having a learning year, but he's probably going to end up in the rotation now.       

Not too upset with their 1-2 record.  Lost to an Eagles team that is one of 3 undefeateds left (and the Lions played them better than the other two).    Lost on the road in a tight game where their known weaknesses were exposed.    Still lack depth on defense.   They are only one game out of first and that's what's important to focus on right now.  It's all there's for the taking still.  

Edited September 26, 2022 by Motor City Sonics

[MichiganCardinal]

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I don't want to jump on Brad Holmes and go crazy over this too early in his tenure as GM, but feel it needs to at least be pointed out. His 2nd and 3rd round picks haven't contributed a thing yet to this team. I remember how excited everyone in the front office was was and how allegedly disappointed the Eagles were when we drafted Alim McNeill in 2021. I remember Holmes wanting to trade up into the first to go and get Levi Onwuzurike. Between Onwuzurike, Paschal, McNeill, and Kirby Joseph, we haven't got anything of substance out of any of these players.

Onwuzurike and Pascal haven't even seen the field and I don't recall that Joseph has either, which is fine I suppose since they have Walker and Elliott. But McNeill, he has 4 total tackles this year, zero sacks, zero hurries, and hasn't looked like he's going to be a dominate run stopper along the line.

It's too early to write any of these guys off or Brad Holmes for drafting them. That said, it might be the strart of a trend of inactivity and lackluster play.

Eh. No one bats 1000 at the Draft. The only swing and miss I'm really close to being ready to call is Levi. He's been nothing short of disappointing. I know that's partially injury related, but he has to be better as a 2nd Round pick. He was supposed to be a run-stuffing body in the middle of that line and he's been nowhere to be found. I would not be shocked if he doesn't make the team next year. Alim is a starter, and while he may not be making a Pro Bowl anytime soon, he's a 3rd Round starter. I think he can still be a starter next year too if he's not drafted over. I can't be that upset there. It's way too early to pass judgement on Paschal, though I know we are inclined to think poorly because he's hurt and we have an awful track record with 2nd round picks. Same with Kerby, who was a comp pick 3rd Rounder. He's young and did show some flashes in the preseason. Not remotely concerned about him yet.

On the other hand, I think Holmes has hit a 4th round pick out of the park in ASB, and has at least made solid contact on some 6th round nobody that goes by the name Rodrigo. Those make up for it for me by a lot. He also seemed to swindle the team that beat us today in a trade to pickup a potentially game-changing wide receiver who we haven't even seen hit the field yet. FWIW, Minnesota's end of that trade (Lewis Cine) was nowhere to be seen today, despite the starter at his position being out.

[RedRamage]

12 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I said during the preseason that I didn't care as much about wins and losses as I did about player development and competent coaches that run the game right. While I still am not focused in on wins/losses, they should have won this game. We can't as fans adopt a complacent attitude where we only expect wins games against teams we think they should beat and lose to everyone else. Underdogs can still be expected to win when put in the right situation. I honestly don't believe we were that much of an underdog.

I think this is a very valid comment and it the appropriate rebuttal to my "sour grapes" attitude of "Well, we expected them to lose anyways, so..."

I think we've all been trained to view the team as a bad team for a long, long, long time and so "well... we expected them to lose anyways, so..." But we shouldn't just expect that nor really accept that as fans.  This one hurts a bit because it was clearly winnable and they found a way to lose.  It would have been a nice statement game.  Looking back 3/4 of a day later and I was probably just trying to psych myself out of feeling upset.

[Motown Bombers]

What is it with this team and Achilles?

 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Is it time to start worrying about Dan Campbell and him being able to run the game right? When does a series of bad decisions and decision making errors become a pattern? How many times do we have to watch poor clock management, timeouts being misused, wrong playcalls, etc. before we identify this as a pattern?

[Hongbit]

FFF

[Motown Bombers]

Headline: Detroit area hospitals flooded with ankle injuries from people bailing on the Lions bandwagon. 

[Motown Bombers]

21 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

They really are. Dan Campbell's aggression on multiple occasions has given us a 14 point lead.

 

46 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Is it time to start worrying about Dan Campbell and him being able to run the game right? When does a series of bad decisions and decision making errors become a pattern? How many times do we have to watch poor clock management, timeouts being misused, wrong playcalls, etc. before we identify this as a pattern?

How quickly things change in a half. Now Campbell can't coach and Brad Holmes cannot draft. It seems like everyone forgot all the aggressive decisions that got them the lead to begin with and completely let the defense off the hook for allowing Minnesota do march down the field with little resistance. 

[RedRamage]

47 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Is it time to start worrying about Dan Campbell and him being able to run the game right? When does a series of bad decisions and decision making errors become a pattern? How many times do we have to watch poor clock management, timeouts being misused, wrong playcalls, etc. before we identify this as a pattern?

I didn't feel like there were serious coaching issues in the first two games.  I did feel like there were some issues in this game so I'm not trying to excuse the coaching staff... just don't see it as a pattern yet.

(This is certainly not to say that there weren't coaching mistakes in the first two games, just that they weren't serious issues/mistakes.)

[Hongbit]

The irony is that his mistake yesterday was not being aggressive enough.   He needed to go for it rather than settling for a long FG.   

My biggest issue other than that call was Aaron Glenn not benching AO.   He needed to come out and get replaced with Will Harris.   

Edited September 26, 2022 by Hongbit

[RedRamage]

A thought I just had... was this a case of a team being too tight?  Did they go into Minny with the idea that a win here would "prove" that they were for real?  Did they go in hoping to cast out the "no road wins" tag and so from the coaching staff on down to the bottom go in here with a serious case of the nerves?

I really felt like everything in the 4th quarter was all about: Don't lose! Don't lose! Don't lose!  And when you play that like it's almost inevitable that you're gonna lose.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

10 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

 

How quickly things change in a half. Now Campbell can't coach and Brad Holmes cannot draft. It seems like everyone forgot all the aggressive decisions that got them the lead to begin with and completely let the defense off the hook for allowing Minnesota do march down the field with little resistance. 

You realize you can be both in praise of someone and then later critical of a decision or multiple decisions beings made. This isn't a zero sum game with only one acceptable solution or opinion. I thought Campbell was smart and aggressive earlier in the game going for it. Guess what, I still believe that. He had this team in a good position during the first half, maybe even 3 full quarters.

I thought he made several mistakes though down the stretch including the field goal and the decision to call the time out during their final drive. Those decisions down the stretch cost this team the game and for that I am going to be critical. Believe it or not, you can have both viewpoints because a game is fluid not static, things change, and a coaches decision making changes throughout the course of a game too.

I know you have a narrative you want to tell of everyone jumping off the bandwagon, but that isn't happening. No one in mass is calling for Holmes or Campbell to be fired. Not here, not on 97.1, not on Twitter as far as I can tell. Calling out mistakes that cost your team a game isn't jumping off the bandwagon. The Lions as an organizaion and Dan Campbell aren't supreme beings who deserve absolute loyalty at all times.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Motown Bombers]

I think leaving a WR wide open in the end zone cost them the game but whatever. My hot take is the Lions will lose another game this season. Even the most optimistic projections had them losing 8 games. 

[MichiganCardinal]

8 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

A thought I just had... was this a case of a team being too tight?  Did they go into Minny with the idea that a win here would "prove" that they were for real?  Did they go in hoping to cast out the "no road wins" tag and so from the coaching staff on down to the bottom go in here with a serious case of the nerves?

I really felt like everything in the 4th quarter was all about: Don't lose! Don't lose! Don't lose!  And when you play that like it's almost inevitable that you're gonna lose.

I don't know about the psychology of it, but the second part I agree with. It felt like they had an offense that was scoring 35+ points a game, scoring a TD every quarter, clicking on all cylinders... and then midway through the 4th quarter yesterday they said "let's just milk this clock and try to escape".

It's not just the 4th down decision, though that's an easy thing to point at. They wasted multiple downs by just running obvious up-the-middles to get Minny to spent timeouts, when their offensive game plan through three quarters had been very effective at moving the ball.

[Jason_R]

Clearly he was right to be aggressive when it was successful but wrong when it was unsuccessful. /s

Remember, they were clicking on all cylinders in the first two games when they were breaking off 50 yard runs. By the 4th quarter yesterday, their two players capable of keeping a defense on its heels were hobbled. That is probably the reason Campbell did not go for it, but he is protecting the team by taking the blame on himself.

Again, a team with more depth on defense could have stopped the final drive. A team with more depth at RB could have churned out a few more first downs.

That lack of depth is why it is a little troubling that Holmes took some injury risks in the draft, and it is why I hope he does not take a risk on a QB next year. Build your roster then get your QB. 

[Hongbit]

16 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I think leaving a WR wide open in the end zone cost them the game but whatever. My hot take is the Lions will lose another game this season. Even the most optimistic projections had them losing 8 games. 

That play never should’ve happened.  There were a number of times in the 4th quarter where they were unable to make a play to win the game.    

I see it as a sign of progress for this regime that fans are frustrated to lose a game they probably had no business winning in the first place.    It’s not the SOL apathy out there.  People are seeing progress and an overall rise in talent from this team.  I really think they can compete with anyone in the league.   It’s still probably an 8+ loss team but I don’t expect any massive 28 point blowouts and that includes Thanksgiving.   

[Motown Bombers]

This was a 3 win team last year. Last year in Minnesota they basically trailed the whole game until late. This time they were the better team for almost the entire game. They've lost their two games by a total of 7 points to good teams. The team is getting there. 

[Motown Bombers]

 

[RandyMarsh]

Okudah is most definitely the best surprise for the Lions but of course to offset that Amani has taken a major step back. After his play last year he looked like he was on the cusp of being a legit number 1 DB.

[buddha]

i'm much more worried about the injuries than i am about a last second loss to the vikings on the road.

next week is the real test.  they should win that game.  and last year the seahawks bitch slapped them.  are they a different team?  lets see.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, RandyMarsh said:

Okudah is most definitely the best surprise for the Lions but of course to offset that Amani has taken a major step back. After his play last year he looked like he was on the cusp of being a legit number 1 DB.

I saw this mentioned elsewhere, but one of the side effects of having one good CB is that offenses will start throwing to the other side more often. 

[RedRamage]

2 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Okudah is most definitely the best surprise for the Lions but of course to offset that Amani has taken a major step back. After his play last year he looked like he was on the cusp of being a legit number 1 DB.

For what's it's worth I think a lot of calls in the game, and especially passing related, are judgement calls. I suspect that some crews are much more nitpicky than others are and we ran into a nitpick crew.  Now, that doesn't excuse Amani, but it could very well be that 9 crews out of 10 don't call those penalties or don't call as many of them penalties.  It also could be that once it was called once the refs were specifically looking for it in the future.  It seemed to me that there were other instances where there was just as much contact not involving Amani that weren't called. 

Additionally look at the last play where there was significant contact and not call was made.  To me it look like the receiver turned into Amani and that it could almost have been called offensive PI because Amani was breaking for the ball and the receiver wasn't even looking for the ball when contact was made... but you saw how vehemently he campaigned for a PI by Amani.  Makes you wonder if the Vikings were pressuring the refs.

Again, all this doesn't excuse Amani. A good pitcher will pitch to the strike zone being called by the ump.  A good CB needs to play to the level that the refs allow and back off when he's being flagged.

[Motown Bombers]

Jamaal Williams ranked 1st among all backs.

Thread

 

[sabretooth]

Jamaal had a great game.  The running game continues to be way way way better than anything I've seen in 45 years of watching Lions football except for Barry and of course Sims....that leaves another 30+ years that this running game is beating by a mile.

And thats with a plug and pray OL and the backup RB yesterday.

This FO and Coaching staff has already been a huge success based solely on the running attack,l.

Edited September 26, 2022 by sabretooth