10/21/2022 7:30 EDT Detroit Pistons vs New York Knicks

[1984Echoes]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

but bey and stewart are better than livers and duren...

I think that's absolutely true, today. But it may not be true by the end of this season.

 

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

... this team is very young and is going to lose a lot of games.  they are 2 years away from the playin games, most likely.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

I hate to use this, very, very bad word again, but... I think this team is going to need some "patience".

From us fans. For all these kids. For Weaver (this is what I have been addressing for the most part in this thread... it seems like some may already be losing patience with Weaver? I don't get that, at all. Not you buddha... I'm just sort of both answering your post as well as jumping up on my soap box for a minute... To emphasize (soap box): These kids are All-Caps YOUNG!)

IMO... maybe not so much patience with Casey.

 

But yeah, lots of losing ahead. Lots of growing pains. But, I'm still thinking that Livers and Duren may be better than Bey and Stewart by seasons' end, at least in specific areas... 

 

[RandyMarsh]

For years we begged for the Pistons to just bottom out instead of being in purgatory and this is exactly what happens when you bottom out, rarely do teams compete a year after getting the number 1 pick unless they either got that pick due to major lottery luck or due to having a fluke bad season from injuries like the Warriors did a couple years ago when they got the 2nd pick. 

[RandyMarsh]

I do think it's fair though to see improvement as the year goes on, maybe not in the standings but if we're still getting destroyed by non elite teams like the Knicks come March it is going to be disappointing. 

[Deleterious]

A competent GM can get you within distance of the playin game in 3 years.  Maybe not make  it but the last week or two of the season should be suspenseful.  4th year its playoffs or bust.  Philly made it to the playoffs in year 5 of the rebuild and their rebuild was much larger than Detroit's.  

Of course missing on your first draft pick is an absolute killer and set them back quite a bit.

[RandyMarsh]

3 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

A competent GM can get you within distance of the playin game in 3 years.  Maybe not make  it but the last week or two of the season should be suspenseful.  4th year its playoffs or bust.  Philly made it to the playoffs in year 5 of the rebuild and their rebuild was much larger than Detroit's.  

Of course missing on your first draft pick is an absolute killer and set them back quite a bit.

But Philly had 2 number 1 overall picks and 2 more top 3 picks thus far Weaver has had number 7, 1 and 5. Yeah he whiffed on the Killian pick and you definitely expect more out of the 7th pick than that but it's not uncommon to get an average or worse player with that pick. He didn't inherit any extra picks when he took over and didn't have a ton of assets so I think it's unfair to expect a playoff caliber team this quickly.  

[buddha]

everything will look really great if the pistons get the #1 or #2 pick next year.  weaver will look like a genius.

but there will be a lot of competition for it.

[buddha]

we'll see if he can turn bogdonovich into anything.

[RandyMarsh]

11 minutes ago, buddha said:

we'll see if he can turn bogdonovich into anything.

I don't know the ins and out of the salary cap and/or rules with it so maybe that's why it didn't happen but if contenders could trade for him why didn't they when we got him? IDK like I said I don't know how that stuff works so maybe contending teams will be able to get him come February but it seems like a guy like that some team would've been able to trump our offer. 

[Deleterious]

Bogdonovich is very tradeable based on skill.  Contenders would kill to add a shooter like that.

But his $19m contract makes it very hard to trade him.  Most contenders don't have that much salary to send out in a trade.

[casimir]

10 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Well, that desire was short lived.

Things were going so well.  And then you showed up.

[casimir]

9 hours ago, Hart said:

So good to see this from Saddiq.  I don't care if he is 0-7...he needs to keep shooting.  I really think the 34.6% three point shooting we saw last year is the floor for him.  

That 34.6% includes a pretty brutal October/November of below 30% in 21 games.  I would agree that seems to be the floor for him.

[Hart]

7 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I'm the biggest Cade fan there is but if he truly ends up just being a low 30s or worse 3PT shooter instead of the mid to upper 30s like what most expected that's going to be a real kick in the nuts. He's still going to be a really good player but he needs to be able to shoot at a plus level to be the superstar that we all hope he's going to be. 

Agreed.  He needs to be shoot at a plus level just to be a really good player.  Being a great passer will only take you so far.  

[casimir]

10 hours ago, boogiebunz said:

The second unit... ewwww.   

I actually do think Bagley can help the second unit shooting. He is a reliable scorer inside, which hopefully forces defenses to collapse some and create open looks from the perimeter. Or, and I know I'm a minority in this, but if they start a big frontcourt of Bagley and Duren, then it could push Saddiq to the bench where he can be a primary scorer in the second unit. Otherwise, Casey has to stagger the rotations so that some of the starters mix in with the second unit earlier in the second quarter.

Also, Livers instead of Diallo could help bench scoring.

I'm not sure the best way to set up the front line.  Maybe Bey to the bench and Bogdanovich would be help with whatever 4/5 combo starts?

The problem right now is that Bagley & Livers are out, so whatever the plan was is out the window for a few weeks anyway.

[Hart]

7 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

For years we begged for the Pistons to just bottom out instead of being in purgatory and this is exactly what happens when you bottom out, rarely do teams compete a year after getting the number 1 pick unless they either got that pick due to major lottery luck or due to having a fluke bad season from injuries like the Warriors did a couple years ago when they got the 2nd pick. 

That's fair.  I am talking Cade's third year.  Ivey's second year.  If we are still one of the worst teams next year, that is a bad sign.  Both those guys will be 4 years removed from high school at that point.  There are players all over the league who are making their team respectable in their early 20's.  

[Hart]

7 hours ago, Deleterious said:

A competent GM can get you within distance of the playin game in 3 years.  Maybe not make  it but the last week or two of the season should be suspenseful.  4th year its playoffs or bust.  Philly made it to the playoffs in year 5 of the rebuild and their rebuild was much larger than Detroit's.  

Of course missing on your first draft pick is an absolute killer and set them back quite a bit.

That's really the crux of this.  If we miss on Cade, it's going to be hard to overcome that in a reasonable timeframe.  Killian was a bust the year before so that means we are really waiting for Ivey and whoever next year's top pick is to make us respectable. 

I'm still high on Cade...for the record.  But it's imperative we put the right players around him.  He doesn't have the freaky athleticism that Morant has or shooting range that Garland, Young, or Doncic have.  

[Hart]

Also, Livers is not going to be an upgrade on Bey.  Bey is not a good ball handler for his position by NBA standards and Livers is considerably worse than Bey.  Plus, Bey is a more dangerous shooter.  I still really like Bey but 5 or 6 threes a game is holding his value back.  He needs to be at 8-10...probably closer to 10.  Not sure if that is on him or Casey but it's frustrating.  

[RandyMarsh]

I wonder how much those pre draft trade rumors were true and what we really were offered for the Cade pick? I think that may be the toughest pill to swallow if he only ends up being a good player and not an elite one like we hoped. 

[Hart]

32 minutes ago, casimir said:

I'm not sure the best way to set up the front line.  Maybe Bey to the bench and Bogdanovich would be help with whatever 4/5 combo starts?

The problem right now is that Bagley & Livers are out, so whatever the plan was is out the window for a few weeks anyway.

Bagley allows us play two bigs but how much is that going to really help for a team that can't shoot.  I guess it will help a little bit because we have guys on our bench who are just bad all around.  You're probably right...they are going to need to split up Bey and Bogey at some point.  

[gehringer_2]

10 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I'm the biggest Cade fan there is but if he truly ends up just being a low 30s or worse 3PT shooter instead of the mid to upper 30s like what most expected that's going to be a real kick in the nuts

the number of flat shots with no backspin remains worrisome.

Edited October 22, 2022 by gehringer_2

[boogiebunz]

I mentioned it during the game, but I would be in favor of starting a big frontcourt of Bagley and Duren when Bagley returns in a few weeks. And I get that it’s not a popular opinion and that on paper it’s not enough shooting in the starting unit. But I look at it helping in a number of ways.

1. Regardless of who’s in the starting unit, the three ball with this team is often hit or miss anyway. Maybe providing a reliable interior scorer like Bagley at least tempts the defense to collapse and the three point attempts they do take are better, more open looks.

2. It creates a different offense set-up than Cade or Jaden with the ball and the other four guys standing and watching. Blame it on the shooting or the coaching, too often the offense resorts to one-on-one by Cade or Ivey and the other guys standing waiting for a kick out three. It’s bad offense. Putting someone in the midpost who can score forces the defense to react differently and hopefully creates better spacing and some off ball action.

3. This team will struggle on the glass. It’s small upfront and unathletic. A Bagley/Duren frontcourt gives them a better chance to compete on the glass against the other team’s starters at both ends of the court.

4. Pushing Saddiq to the second unit gives them a primary scorer to run the offense through. Add Burks and Livers as competent shooters, and maybe Hayes or Joseph can actually put up some assists.

Most people don’t want to hear an argument for two non three point shooting bigs in the starting line-up in this era of NBA basketball. But I can see some advantages that it could provide.

[boogiebunz]

Cade needs to have a Kobe like mentality when it comes to his craft, be a gym rat, putting up thousands of jumpers up a day. Get that muscle memory engraved in his shooting arm. He has obvious high end natural talent. The work ethic and man hours need to be put in to maximize those talents.

Great shooters aren’t born. They’re molded in the gym with hours and hours and days and days of just shooting. Wake up, shoot. Lift, shoot. Eat lunch, shoot. Work out again, shoot. Take a shower, shoot. He’s a good shooter with proper mechanics. He should log the hours so that when game time comes, shooting is like breathing.

[Hart]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

the number of flat shots with no backspin remains worrisome.

I was actually going to ask about this yesterday.  Can you identify the issue with his shot?  It's hard to see the spin unless they show a slow motion replay.  I hadn't noticed this issue with him.  

My next question would be what percentile was he last year in the mid range.  Del can probably answer that.  I would guess he is a pretty good mid range shooter statistically and I would like to see him lean into that more.  This would also explain some of the discrepancy between his college three point percentage and pro thus far.  

Edited October 22, 2022 by Hart

[Hart]

1 hour ago, boogiebunz said:

I mentioned it during the game, but I would be in favor of starting a big frontcourt of Bagley and Duren when Bagley returns in a few weeks. And I get that it’s not a popular opinion and that on paper it’s not enough shooting in the starting unit. But I look at it helping in a number of ways.

1. Regardless of who’s in the starting unit, the three ball with this team is often hit or miss anyway. Maybe providing a reliable interior scorer like Bagley at least tempts the defense to collapse and the three point attempts they do take are better, more open looks.

2. It creates a different offense set-up than Cade or Jaden with the ball and the other four guys standing and watching. Blame it on the shooting or the coaching, too often the offense resorts to one-on-one by Cade or Ivey and the other guys standing waiting for a kick out three. It’s bad offense. Putting someone in the midpost who can score forces the defense to react differently and hopefully creates better spacing and some off ball action.

3. This team will struggle on the glass. It’s small upfront and unathletic. A Bagley/Duren frontcourt gives them a better chance to compete on the glass against the other team’s starters at both ends of the court.

4. Pushing Saddiq to the second unit gives them a primary scorer to run the offense through. Add Burks and Livers as competent shooters, and maybe Hayes or Joseph can actually put up some assists.

Most people don’t want to hear an argument for two non three point shooting bigs in the starting line-up in this era of NBA basketball. But I can see some advantages that it could provide.

I think with the current roster, you definitely make some good points.  4 of our top 8 or 9 player are big guys who can't shoot.  We really have no choice but to play two big guys together.  

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, Hart said:

I was actually going to ask about this yesterday.  Can you identify the issue with his shot?  It's hard to see the spin unless they show a slow motion replay.  I hadn't noticed this issue with him.  

My next question would be what percentile was he last year in the mid range.  Del can probably answer that.  I would guess he is actually a pretty good mid range shooter statistically and I would like to see him lean into that more.  This would also explain some of the discrepancy between his college three point percentage and pro thus far.  

LOL - no I'm absolutely no basketball skill analyst but good arc and backspin are pretty basic to every good shooter I've ever watched so I that's sort of the minimum I am able to discern. TBF, it may just be matter of not being the last desperation option so much of the time or at least gaining the maturity to bring the mechanics he normally has to bear even when rushed. And that goes back to what BB just said - which is whether  he's working as hard as he possibly can on his shot now? Maybe he already is, but for Cade there is not one other thing more important for his and the Piston's future than for him to improve his shooting.

Edited October 22, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Hart]

1 hour ago, boogiebunz said:

Cade needs to have a Kobe like mentality when it comes to his craft, be a gym rat, putting up thousands of jumpers up a day. Get that muscle memory engraved in his shooting arm. He has obvious high end natural talent. The work ethic and man hours need to be put in to maximize those talents.

Great shooters aren’t born. They’re molded in the gym with hours and hours and days and days of just shooting. Wake up, shoot. Lift, shoot. Eat lunch, shoot. Work out again, shoot. Take a shower, shoot. He’s a good shooter with proper mechanics. He should log the hours so that when game time comes, shooting is like breathing.

Hopefully he is already doing this.  It seems like Cade has decent mechanics to work with.  I look at Ivey and it feels like his ceiling for three point shooting percentage is lower than Cade's.  His mechanics do not look good.  I think you are happy if Ivey can be 33 or 34 percent from three.  And that's okay with the rest of his skillset.  I would not mess too much with his mechanics.  He should just work hard with what he has got.  Cade is different.  He needs to be 35% minimum to reach his potential.  And it seems like he has the mechanics to do that...at least to my eyes.