Detroit Lions Offseason Thread 2023

[RandyMarsh]

8 minutes ago, NYLion said:

So... Wagner is an interesting option. He's still a top player but you worry at his age that he can fall off any moment and he'd probably be fairly pricey for a player his age but I think he'd be a real boon for this defense.

Regardless, he's likely signing with a true contender but it's fun to talk about something like this being even a remote possibility which would have been a complete fantasy a year ago. The Lions have come a long way in a year.

Yeah his age is worrisome but even though I haven't fact checked it seems that middle linebackers age alot better than most positions since the position relies heavily on instinct and tackling ability. But like you said he probably wants to go to a proven contender and not a possible or speculative one like us so it really doesn't matter. 

[Motown Bombers]

21 minutes ago, KL2 said:

OK, I guess just ignore everything and keep making the same point. Helpful. 

Yes they have other resources. But, they are giving up a first round pick so I think even you can agree by doing that you have less resources. 2 is more than 1 no? 

And you ignored the cap space this year. If they give Higgins $12 million, that is again less to help this year, no? 35 million less than 54 million, no?

And whoooo the Lions have a bunch of cap space in 2024. Who cares? Im sure some of that will be eaten up by new deals, extensions and who they sign this year. Let's worry about hwo we use our resources this year before we give up picks AND space that might or might not be there in 2024. 

And who the Flip gives a crap about the Eagles and what they did. They were in a much different spot with a top 10 defense, ours is 32nd. 32nd is much worse than 10, no? That changes things to make that comparison is just stupid. 

Again, Higgins makes sens in video games. This ain't one. The Lions have far more pressing needs. If you want a WR draft one, or sign one. That way you aren't giving up cash AND picks like you would with Higgins and leave yourself with fewer resources to add quality defensive players....or a RB...or a Guard or whatever the heck else you need. 

Ok, I guess you are just going to ignore they are adding talent. You know that's what you do in the NFL with these resources they call draft picks. You exchange them for players. Tee Higgins is a football player. A good one. You exchange resources (draft picks) for good player. Do you understand? Here is the great thing. You mentioned about adding to the defense. Guess what? The Lions have more of these resources that can be exchanged for defensive player. Does that make sense? Do I need to dumb it down more for you? 

What about the cap space? The Lions have plenty. Guess what money is exchanged for players. The Lions can exchange money for Higgins and other players. Amazing I know. Who cares about 2024? It means they have a lot of this money to exchange not just for Higgins long term but for other players. Wild. 

If you want a WR, sign one, but oMg ReSoUrCeS, or draft one BuT rEsOuRcEs. Weird how you can suggest exchanging resources for a WR but not trade them for Higgins who is young and proven. If you draft a WR you still have to pay that receiver and lose the pick to draft him. Mind blown. 

The Eagles defense last year was 18th in points against and 12th in points for so you are wrong there. The Eagles comp is a good comparison because they are team that started slow like the Lions, made it to 9-8, and used their multiple picks to add to their offense even after they drafted Devontae Smith in the 1st round and he had a good season. The Lions literally only have one proven WR under contract next year. Williams has 1 catch in his career. Your left with Reynolds and Raymond. This isn't a video game. The Eagles added a WR and were still able to draft defensive players. Weird I know but teams can do that. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Motown Bombers

[Motown Bombers]

15 minutes ago, KL2 said:

I just don't get the argument cause its plays out like this. 

People: We don't need a QB, Jared Goff is great and on a top five offense and a leader who has been to the Super Bowl. It's stupid to draft a backup with one of our two picks because we need to address other areas.

Same People: We need to add a WR to said top offense that was pretty good at the cost of picks AND cash. It's cool though we other picks. 

Except Higgins wouldn't be a backup who would never play. Nate Sudfeld had 0 pass attempts. DJ Chark had 500 receiving yards and you are going to have to spend resources to retain him *GASP* or you can spend resources and not only replace him but upgrade the position with a proven player. 

Jared Goff is a great QB who has led a team to a Super Bowl and has had a winning record in 5 of the 6 season he's been a full time starter. Lets make it easier for him. 

[Motown Bombers]

Won't someone please think of the resources! Heaven forbid we exchange them for a good young player. 

[Hongbit]

18 minutes ago, NYLion said:

Not interested. The Lions core receivers are Amon Ra and Jamo and the former needs to get paid in 2 years. Not only are you giving up the draft capital but you're also paying Higgins big money long term which could well prohibit the Lions from filling other more pressing needs and re-signing some key guys.

I'd rather just re-sign Chark or use a draft pick on a receiver. I would have been more fine with this last year (when the Deebo rumors came out) but the Lions are in a different place now. 

Theoretically,  they could work out a 4 year deal for Tee that would finish right when Jamo would be due for a 2nd contract.    

[RandyMarsh]

I do think Higgins would be a perfect fit here and take the offense to another level. 

St. Brown is the perfect possession receiver that can move the chains and make people miss. 

Jamo is potentially that speed guy that can reek havoc on crossing patterns or blow by defenders.

All that we are missing is the big WR that can go up and get balls when the coverage is good and Higgins is one of the best in football at that along with being great at alot of other things. 

I dont know enough about manipulating the cap to comment on the effects of his salary would have but as long as it didn't cripple it Id have no qualms about giving up the 18th pick for him in this class for him. I think he could help us score more points than any defender we can find can prevent points from scoring for us save for maybe Ramsey.

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by RandyMarsh

[Hongbit]

@KL2 brought up an excellent point about how contracts are structured.  We’ve seen teams like Rams, 49ers, and Bucs all continue to sign players and backload the deals and spread out the signing bonus.   They keep kicking the bucket down the road knowing it will come due some day but in the meantime they can put the best possible team on the field.  They also understand that the cap is only going up and a number that looks impossible to fit in the moment will be possibly in a few years as the cap rises.  Also a team like the Lions that drafts well should feel confident they can draft later round starters on cheap 4 year rookie deals that will help the overall cap in the future.  

Edited February 24, 2023 by Hongbit

[Motown Bombers]

Higgins cap hit for 2023 is $3.9 million. Between the 18th pick and the Lions 4th round pick which would be traded for Higgins, it would be a wash. Higgins wouldn't be taking any additional cap in 2023. He would be making a lot more in 2024 vs the 18th pick so that's where the Lions projected $120 million cap space in 2024 comes into play. 

I'm actually not sure why the Bengals would want to trade Higgins. They need to give out big contracts to Burrow and Chase but they have a lot of upcoming cap room. They are a notoriously cheap team so maybe that's why. 

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

They have built a foundation through the draft and the proposed trade was a 1st and a 4th so it's not a bunch of picks and you are acquiring a receiver who just turned 24 in January. St Brown is the only proven receiver on the roster. It's not like adding Higgins would be a luxury. The Lions would still have another 1st, presumably the 6th overall pick, plus a pair of 2nd round picks and a 3rd to add to the roster and the defense. I make the trade if it's just a 1st and 4th. 

Question:

Which 4th? Because we don't have a 4th this year...

[Hongbit]

The initial suggestion on PFF was a 2024 4th

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Question:

Which 4th? Because we don't have a 4th this year...

In 2024 but I think they owe that to the Vikings since Kirk Cousins doesn't win playoff games. 

So they wouldn't save cap space in 2023 for trading the 4th but that was projected at $950k. Lions would add about $1 million to their 2023 cap if they traded the 18th for Higgins. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Motown Bombers

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

Sorry there isn't NOBODY but a whole what 3 to 4 other players that fit the bill of being 6'3 or taller among the top 25 WRs? While not none like I previous said(I hadn't scoured every rankings) it does basically show my overall point that there aren't many big bodied outside receivers in this draft and none that rank in Johnson's tier. 

I listed more than just 6' 3" guys because I think that's a ridiculous requirement.

A guy is 6' 2" and has both jump and 4.40 speed but is excluded by your definition?

Sorry, but...

I'll rely on Holmes' ability to identify a guy who can beat deep coverage either with (A) speed, or (B) leaping/ high-point ability, or (C) height advantage over most CB's/ safeties, or (D) separation/ route-running ability, or (E) any combination thereof.

All I need is a guy who can get open deep and make catches, whether he's 5' 11 or 6' 5" or any height in-between.

There is no reason, NONE, to limit draftable receivers to Johnston and only Johnston. That is beyond ridiculous.

You wanna say Johnston is the best and that's why you want the Lions to draft him... got it. But there's no other WR that the Lions would want or could make fit into their offense...?

Insanity.

[NYLion]

37 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Theoretically,  they could work out a 4 year deal for Tee that would finish right when Jamo would be due for a 2nd contract.    

Yeah but the Lions have some big extensions coming up with St. Brown and Sewell and Decker's deal is up in 2 years so they'll need to fill that role as well. Jackson's new deal will be on the books soon as well. It would be fine for next season because his contract is cheap but would create big problems after that when his extension kicks in.

I just think if they're going to splurge, it should be at a position of greater need. I don't have a problem with Higgins the player, he'd be a good fit anywhere, but I just don't think it's the right move at the right time.     

Edited February 24, 2023 by NYLion

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, NYLion said:

Not interested. The Lions core receivers are Amon Ra and Jamo and the former needs to get paid in 2 years. Not only are you giving up the draft capital but you're also paying Higgins big money long term which could well prohibit the Lions from filling other more pressing needs and re-signing some key guys.

I'd rather just re-sign Chark or use a draft pick on a receiver. I would have been more fine with this last year (when the Deebo rumors came out) but the Lions are in a different place now. 

What would be the difference (in AAV) between re-signing Anzalone or...

Signing Wagner to a 3-year $30 mill contract? Or would it be $36 mill? I think because of age Wagner gets less than his last contract. And I think the Lions would definitely be a consideration for him...

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, NYLion said:

Yeah but the Lions have some big extensions coming up with St. Brown and Sewell and Decker's deal is up in 2 years so they'll need to fill that role as well. Jackson's new deal will be on the books soon as well.

I just think if they're going to splurge, it should be at a position of greater need. I don't have a problem with Higgins the player, he'd be a good fit anywhere, but I just don't think it's the right move at the right time.     

The Lions next leading receiver after St Brown is Kalif Raymond. Receiver isn't exactly a deep position on this team. Teams win with elite offenses. Higgins can make this offense elite and you still have draft picks to make the defense good enough. They have $120 million in cap space next year. The cap will continue to increase. They have room to sign Higgins and St Brown and Sewell to extensions. If Holmes keeps drafting well he's going to have to keep paying his players. If they can't afford to keep all three of Higgins, St Brown and Williams, then trade Williams like the Chiefs did with Hill. 

[RandyMarsh]

You also got to keep in mind that we also will have a couple drafts to stockpile talent before the big extensions come up so even if we can't resign everybody to big extensions we could potentially in house replacements. 

[Motown Bombers]

Not seeing any downside to the fact the Lions may end up with too many good players and won't be able to afford all of them. 

[Stanley70]

54 minutes ago, KL2 said:

Let's look at your first post

"It's looking like Detroit will not be big players in free agency, or resigning Chark. Even if they cut most of the guys on the bubble like Okwara and Harris that will only leave them with enough to resign a couple of their own free agents, plus maybe a couple of mid tier guys."

You literally wrote they will only have the cap space to sign their own guys and couple of mid tier free agents. 

You in no way in that post wrote that they could sign a big name. You literally said they can't. That is what people disputed. Then in your next post you came and said, well...they could but it would eat up everything. In no way does it say that in your first post in quotes above. 

You were wrong in your break down in the cap in that you don't understand how contract work. Yes flowers went up in year 3. Not sure what the heck that has to do with anything. It didn't stop the Lions from signing him no? Just like if Bradberry is 5 million this year and 25 million in 2026 it won't mean they don't have the cap space to sign him in 2023. 

And yes teams caps will be different. Again, what does that have to do with anything and it in no way deters from the fact the Lions do have the cap space to sign a big name, which you said is impossible because they only have the cap space to resign their own gusy and a couple of middle tier free agents. 

Everyone knows you can backload, add voidable years like they just did with Chark, and kick the can down the road. I didn't clarify that, my mistake. I did not imply it was impossible, just unlikely without serious cap pushing.

And that is what they will have to do to add a big name free agent, fact. Unless they want to go cheap on replacing the 8 starters that are unsigned as of now. So if they replace/resign Jamaal, Brown, Wright, Chark, Buggs, Anzalone, Cominsky, and Elliot they will eat up their current cap space. Not to mention the depth needs they have. 

They may do a little can kicking but unless they really like Dean or someone else I don't see them pushing too much out to future years. Like your Trey Flowers example, if they want to backload the bill will come due later when it is time to extend Sewell, Jackson, Goff, ARSB, etc. Cap space goes up but so does the cost of players contracts.

 

 

 

[Motown Bombers]

I think as Holmes gets more drafts under his belt, those late rounders he drafts will be good depth players and they will have to use less cap on roster filler. No more signing players like Nick Williams to a 2 year $10 million deal or Christian Jones to 2 years $6 million. Holmes can draft better players than that in the 5-7 rounds and just keep churning them over. Malcolm Rodriguez is better than those two already. 

[MichiganCardinal]

I like Bobby Wagner.

[1984Echoes]

Key question:

What would be the cost difference between re-signing Anzalone or signing Wagner?

[RandyMarsh]

Fwiw(which probably isn't much) CBS Sports had us at 4 for potential landing spots after the Bengals, Eagles(they noted they'd need to clear a lot of space) and the Giants. 

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Key question:

What would be the cost difference between re-signing Anzalone or signing Wagner?

A lot but I would still do it. 

Lets not forget Tremaine Edmunds is a free agent unless Buffalo re-signs him or franchises him. As good as Wagner is, I think I may spend the cash on Edmunds who is quite a bit younger. 

[MichiganCardinal]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

Key question:

What would be the cost difference between re-signing Anzalone or signing Wagner?

Anzalone wouldn’t cost very much. Wagner would cost a a lot for a linebacker, but on a two-year deal, that money could potentially be off the books by the time you have to sign your current rookies long-term.

[Motown Bombers]

To be honest I would rather sign Edmunds than Wagner but would not be disappointed with Wagner. 

Then again, Edmunds has only had one good year so I'm not sure I break the bank either. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Motown Bombers