06/07/2023 6:05pm EDT Detroit Tigers vs Philadelphia Phillies

[Tigermojo]

Tigers will face Arizona's three best starters. Two of them have been really good.

[RatkoVarda]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

Is this haiku?

More like a damn dirge

But funerals are more fun

Force Harris to watch

Edited June 9, 2023 by RatkoVarda

[Sports_Freak]

11 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I know it's beating a dead horse, but it keeps happening. Someone needs to write "Stop taking middle-middle fastballs for strike 1" on the bill of all of Torkelson's caps. And if this is coaching, it needs to change.

The Tigers put an importance on "controlling the strike zone". While this may work while pitching, other teams have caught on to our hitting tendencies. Taking pitches trying to get ahead in the count? Good individual idea but when every player tries it, other teams just pound the strike zone. That puts us in a lot of 0-2 counts. And looking at BA in regards to the count, hitters don't fare well after falling behind. It's not a good team hitting strategy. Just my opinion.

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said:

The Tigers put an importance on "controlling the strike zone". While this may work while pitching, other teams have caught on to our hitting tendencies. Taking pitches trying to get ahead in the count? Good individual idea but when every player tries it, other teams just pound the strike zone. That puts us in a lot of 0-2 counts. And looking at BA in regards to the count, hitters don't fare well after falling behind. It's not a good team hitting strategy. Just my opinion.

Hopefully one of the 13 batting coaches has taken notice of this as well and they can make some adjustments quickly.  I'm not suggesting the recent malaise is due solely to approach.  Its just not a good lineup to begin with.  But they need to find and employ any advantage they can.  They need to minimize any disadvantage they can.

[gehringer_2]

I'm also not sure if the game hasn't already moved on from the basic predicate about 'getting the starters pitch count up.' We've done that in a number of series game ones already and have pretty much nothing to show for it. Today all teams have deeper BPs with guys that also throw breaking balls. 

[RandyMarsh]

Yeah to me there is very little benefit to being patient in this day and age. You're better off swinging early cause the deeper you go in the count the tougher the pitch you're going to get.

Gone are the days where pitchers will give you a cookie on 3-1 cause they don't want to walk you, they're not going to give in cause they don't care if you take 1st base they just don't want to give up a bomb. 

[kdog]

They went 1-55 or whatever in the first 3 innings of the road trip. If they choose to roll out the same lineups, they have no answers.

[RatkoVarda]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

The Tigers put an importance on "controlling the strike zone". While this may work while pitching, other teams have caught on to our hitting tendencies. Taking pitches trying to get ahead in the count? Good individual idea but when every player tries it, other teams just pound the strike zone. That puts us in a lot of 0-2 counts. And looking at BA in regards to the count, hitters don't fare well after falling behind. It's not a good team hitting strategy. Just my opinion.

bottom line, its not working

basically same results as last year with Coolbaugh, a few more walks, a few less hits, still zero power

a consistent theme: very little talent, but clearly very little success is getting the talent they do have to be successful

[gehringer_2]

a little wisdom from the system's best hitter:

Quote

"Having success in the Eastern League is about not missing that one pitch," Keith said. "You can get hits on the balls on the corners and changeups down, but you're going to do your damage on the fastballs middle and the hangers that leak back to the middle of the plate. Not missing that pitch is really big for me."  -freep/petzold

Of course, the thing with Torkelson is that he says the right things, but I think he still has to turn up his aggression level maybe one notch. Just 2 less cookies a week that are crushed instead of taken would make all the difference.

[Tiger337]

I don't think their approach is the problem.  It's lack of talent.  

[theroundsquare]

From Law's chat the other day, for whatever it is worth:

 

Dan: What to make about Torkelson? He’s just not gonna be a guy huh?
Keith Law: I don’t know what to make of him – he does make hard contact, enough that he should at least be hitting for more average and at least occasional power. I’ll say I was thrilled to see Riley Greene fulfilling my breakout prediction until this very unfortunate injury, not just for me or even for the kid, but because the Tigers need a development success story. Here’s hoping he’s the first of many. But Torkelson … I’m not giving up on him, at all, but I keep going back to when I saw him the first time and didn’t think the tools matched the huge production. I thought he was just a guy, a solid college hitter without the huge upside you’d want at 1-1. I figured I got him wrong.

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, theroundsquare said:

From Law's chat the other day, for whatever it is worth:

 

Dan: What to make about Torkelson? He’s just not gonna be a guy huh?
Keith Law: I don’t know what to make of him – he does make hard contact, enough that he should at least be hitting for more average and at least occasional power. I’ll say I was thrilled to see Riley Greene fulfilling my breakout prediction until this very unfortunate injury, not just for me or even for the kid, but because the Tigers need a development success story. Here’s hoping he’s the first of many. But Torkelson … I’m not giving up on him, at all, but I keep going back to when I saw him the first time and didn’t think the tools matched the huge production. I thought he was just a guy, a solid college hitter without the huge upside you’d want at 1-1. I figured I got him wrong.

 "not just for me"

[SoCalTiger]

If the idea of controlling the strike zone is to get a good pitch to hit then there’s no reason to wait. If it’s to work a walk then it’s a losing proposition. 
 

[theroundsquare]

9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

 "not just for me"

glad he clarified that.  i usually think he just wants things for himself.  selfish bastard

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't think their approach is the problem.  It's lack of talent.  

I don't think there has been much talent, but the count of guys who are hitting better since having left is threatening to build a counterargument.

[RandyMarsh]

It felt like all the way up to the draft all you heard was how Tork was a generational bat then almost as soon as we drafted him all the sudden you started hearing reports about possible red flags about him. 

Same with Mize too, he was this can't miss pitching prospect then right after we draft him suddenly people start bringing up questions about him. 

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

It felt like all the way up to the draft all you heard was how Tork was a generational bat then almost as soon as we drafted him all the sudden you started hearing reports about possible red flags about him. 

Same with Mize too, he was this can't miss pitching prospect then right after we draft him suddenly people start bringing up questions about him. 

I was leary about Mize because he was a trick pitch pitcher. I don't care how good a college or HS guy's off speed is, in the majors if you can't get guys out with your fast ball when you need to, you are going to be in trouble. And that has been Casey's problem - when he has had to throw his FB it gets hit. On the injury side it would be interesting to know if Pedro was just riffing or if any good data on injury rates vs mechanics has yet emerged. It's mostly just been ambiguity in the past.

I still think Torkelson's ability to square up a baseball is well above average and his mechanics are smooth as silk,  but his struggles are dismaying. He seems to ping-pong around. For a while too many Ks, then the K rate improved but then he went through a stretch where he got so many walks I think he's gotten too passive. Maybe he needs to just level out. His mantra this Spring had been 'trust the process' and maybe he's let himself get away from that.

[RandyMarsh]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I was leary about Mize because he was a trick pitch pitcher. I don't care how good a college or HS guy's off speed is, in the majors if you can't get guys out with your fast ball when you need to, you are going to be in trouble. And that has been Casey's problem - when he has had to throw his FB it gets hit. On the injury side it would be interesting to know if Pedro was just riffing or if any good data on injury rates vs mechanics has yet emerged. It's mostly just been ambiguity in the past.

I still think Torkelson's ability to square up a baseball is well above average and his mechanics are smooth as silk,  but his struggles are dismaying. He seems to ping-pong around. For a while too many Ks, then the K rate improved but then he went through a stretch where he got so many walks I think he's gotten too passive. Maybe he needs to just level out. His mantra this Spring had been 'trust the process' and maybe he's let himself get away from that.

I loved Mize pre draft cause I thought his command was elite but that of course wasn't the case.

I was so used to us getting these power arms with no control the thought of getting an arm that had 70+ grade command with mid 90s velocity was tantalizing to me. Then on top of that having a wipe out secondary pitch just made him that much more attractive.

The problem of course was that his command wasn't nearly what I expected and his FB didnt have the life on it to get whiffs if you missed in the zone. Not to mention his fabeled splitter was nowhere to be found. 

Not giving up on him though but my expectations now are for a solid number 2-3 not elite ace like I thought he could've been originally. 

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I loved Mize pre draft cause I thought his command was elite but that of course wasn't the case.

I was so used to us getting these power arms with no control the thought of getting an arm that had 70+ grade command with mid 90s velocity was tantalizing to me. Then on top of that having a wipe out secondary pitch just made him that much more attractive.

The problem of course was that his command wasn't nearly what I expected and his FB didnt have the life on it to get whiffs if you missed in the zone. Not to mention his fabeled splitter was nowhere to be found. 

Not giving up on him though but my expectations now are for a solid number 2-3 not elite ace like I thought he could've been originally. 

Right. And based on the above, I think we can see Casey has basically two ways to get better once he get healthy. One - after full recovery from the TJ his command *might* actually improve. It does happen for some guys, in which case being able to keep his FB out of the middle of the zone can compensate for it not being the best FB. OR, a grip, release or arm angle tweak gives the FB more life. It's certainly not that he can't (or at least couldn't) throw hard enough. He had plenty of arm - at least before it started to hurt.

Edited June 9, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Dave Christian]

Opposing pitchers know that it's easy to get ahead in the count against Torkelson.

Just throw a center cut fastball first pitch and he won't swing, strike one.

Second pitch, throw at the bill of his cap and he swings at it, strike two.

Third pitch is a ball outside.

Fourth pitch, low and outside, Tork makes contact, pops out to first base.

Rinse and repeat!!😡

 

 

[gehringer_2]

46 minutes ago, Dave Christian said:

Opposing pitchers know that it's easy to get ahead in the count against Torkelson.

Just throw a center cut fastball first pitch and he won't swing, strike one.

Second pitch, throw at the bill of his cap and he swings at it, strike two.

Third pitch is a ball outside.

Fourth pitch, low and outside, Tork makes contact, pops out to first base.

Rinse and repeat!!😡

So I don't mind so much if a guy takes the first pitch in his 1st AB - for timing and all that.  But yeah - with that exception you've got to be ready to hit strike one to give yourself a chance.

Edited June 9, 2023 by gehringer_2

[SoCalTiger]

2 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

It felt like all the way up to the draft all you heard was how Tork was a generational bat then almost as soon as we drafted him all the sudden you started hearing reports about possible red flags about him. 

Same with Mize too, he was this can't miss pitching prospect then right after we draft him suddenly people start bringing up questions about him. 

Maybe our local baseball writers don’t really know baseball. Just promoters for the franchise. 

[chasfh]

On 6/9/2023 at 10:56 AM, gehringer_2 said:

I don't think there has been much talent, but the count of guys who are hitting better since having left is threatening to build a counterargument.

I think it was a bad decision to get rid of Candelario, and I thought a case could be made for keeping Willi Castro. I don’t know what to think of Kody Clemens yet.