Trade Deadline

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Longgone said:

There is no 1,2 or 3 wide receiver, there are roles in an offense based on the types of routes generally run. Jamo is a Y, Reynolds is a Y. Chark was an ideal X. DPJ will probably fill the X role, which has been sorely lacking.

Does this work for you better NY?

I'm calling DPJ the #2, from now until the end of the season, he'll get the 2nd most WR targets after ASB. Does "X" work better for you?

Reynolds was NOT the X receiver, he was the Y. From now until the end of the season, he'll be 3rd on the target list.

If Jamo gets up to speed... it won't be DPJ losing targets, it will be Josh. Or maybe even a little of both as I'm not certain exactly how they'll want to use him... But I think Longgone is correct, Jamo will mostly be a Y...

That's what I said originally. I'm not going to change anything I've said.

DPJ will get the 2nd most targets as the X receiver (I'm calling that the #2 but... whatever...). DPJ will be the "do-anything/everything" receiver that will be all over the field getting targeted everywhere. Not more than ASB, but 2nd most. So I guess I am saying that not only will DPJ be the X receiver (#2... haha) but that he will ALSO get the 2nd most WR targets, after ASB.

Josh will get 3rd most targets as Y receiver (#3 in my book but I seem to be getting overruled here... no worries. And I seem to be doubling up again on both position (#3) AND targets... but I think that will end up being correct).

[holygoat]

DPJ is depth. Reynolds will lose zero snaps or targets to DPJ because Reynolds and Goff have a strong on-field connection that goes back years, and DPJ is brand new.

[1984Echoes]

DPJ and Reynolds play different positions.

So yes, Reynolds will not lose snaps or "Y" receiver targets to DPJ.

But DPJ is not only an "X" receiver, which will get whatever snaps/ targets an "X" receiver will get; but he is also a younger, more well-rounded, tougher, more dependable WR than than Reynolds. "Years connection" means jack squat when DPJ gets more targets simply to move the chains (X job) more often than Reynolds gets downfield targets (Y job). I know that's a gross simplification, but that's generally what's going to happen. If Reynolds loses snaps, it won't be to DPJ, it will be to Jamo. This is the 5th time I've said as much... No one is listening?

DPJ is "brand new"? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Goff is not allowed to throw the ball to DPJ because he's "brand new"?

There's a 60-day waiting period (moratorium?) before Goff is allowed to throw to DPJ?

The reasoning in here on Josh Reynolds is getting worse by the minute.

[MichiganCardinal]

If this is what this place is like at 6-2, I shudder to think what it would have historically been like at 0-11-1.

[NYLion]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Past tense.

Yes, you are.

 

 

Again, I'm talking about this season, "was" in terms of what we've seen up to this point. I thought that was obvious but I guess not. REynolds has 397 yards, the next guy has 231 yards. Reynolds has been the #2 this season. #3 if you include Laporta as a receiver.

And you still haven't told me who the #2 was if he was the #3. IF you think Peoples-Jones will get more targets then maybe he'll be the #3. Seems like you clarified that you're projecting future targets so fair enough if you think Peoples-Jones will get the 2nd most targets. I'm not so sure about that but can't discount the possibilty.

Anyway, and I'll just say it for the last time, my general point is that Reynolds is not going be displaced by Peoples-Jones. It'll likely be receiver by committee, whoever is hot at the time. Peoples-Jones is taking on the role that they envisioned with Marvin Jones as an X receiver. I should have probably copied and pasted the last 3 times I said it haha.

Edited November 2, 2023 by NYLion

[Mr.TaterSalad]

12 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

If this is what this place is like at 6-2, I shudder to think what it would have historically been like at 0-11-1.

Ha! When you're finally a really good team though, you raise the bar and expectations for what you expect from them and from the front office. For years the thing I, and many Lions fans, looked forward to the most was the NFL draft and the promise of a new day that it would bring for us. We would be let down of course because the front office in charge of running the draft would make bad decisions. But for years, we would sit around and hope they tanked the season to increase their draft positioning.

Now, we don't have to do any of that because we have a good team, with a smart front office in place. So we can raise our standards and expectations of the front office. We can hope they do more to put this team over the top and be a force in the playoffs. We can actually, legitimately have Super Bowl talk for only the second time in my life. The other time was in 1991 and I was all of 4 years old then. I think its exciting to be able to bitch about not making a bigger move for Montez Sweat or Chase Young or Patrick Surtain or whoever as opposed t hoping they just tank from here on out for draft capital. I'm enjoying the heck out of these debates.

[MichiganCardinal]

34 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Ha! When you're finally a really good team though, you raise the bar and expectations for what you expect from them and from the front office. For years the thing I, and many Lions fans, looked forward to the most was the NFL draft and the promise of a new day that it would bring for us. We would be let down of course because the front office in charge of running the draft would make bad decisions. But for years, we would sit around and hope they tanked the season to increase their draft positioning.

Now, we don't have to do any of that because we have a good team, with a smart front office in place. So we can raise our standards and expectations of the front office. We can hope they do more to put this team over the top and be a force in the playoffs. We can actually, legitimately have Super Bowl talk for only the second time in my life. The other time was in 1991 and I was all of 4 years old then. I think its exciting to be able to bitch about not making a bigger move for Montez Sweat or Chase Young or Patrick Surtain or whoever as opposed t hoping they just tank from here on out for draft capital. I'm enjoying the heck out of these debates.

I agree. I also think we should take some time and enjoy this though. Best team in the North by what feels like a fairly wide margin, probably the youngest very good team in the NFL, and not only a legitimate Super Bowl threat, but also a threat to make this success sustainable. Even when the Lions were good in recent past years, it felt like it was talent they had lucked into (Stafford, Calvin, and Suh), surrounded by band aids and patchwork. This feels like a real team.

And the Packers are 2-5.  

[KnoxP]

52 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I agree. I also think we should take some time and enjoy this though. Best team in the North by what feels like a fairly wide margin, probably the youngest very good team in the NFL, and not only a legitimate Super Bowl threat, but also a threat to make this success sustainable. Even when the Lions were good in recent past years, it felt like it was talent they had lucked into (Stafford, Calvin, and Suh), surrounded by band aids and patchwork. This feels like a real team.

And the Packers are 2-5.  

Agree! Nothing so far for me to bitch about. I think we have a legit shot at a #1 seed. Who'd have thought?

Edited November 2, 2023 by KnoxP

[Sports_Freak]

3 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I agree. I also think we should take some time and enjoy this though. Best team in the North by what feels like a fairly wide margin, probably the youngest very good team in the NFL, and not only a legitimate Super Bowl threat, but also a threat to make this success sustainable. Even when the Lions were good in recent past years, it felt like it was talent they had lucked into (Stafford, Calvin, and Suh), surrounded by band aids and patchwork. This feels like a real team.

And the Packers are 2-5.  

Exactly. Several years of success are much better than bringing in some 10 game rental who would be too expensive to keep anyway. Right now, I see the Lions as the 3rd or 4th best team in the NFC. Getting to the NFC Championship game seemed like a dream last year at this time when they were 1-6, or whatever. We just need to be patient and enjoy the ride!!

[NYLion]

4 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I agree. I also think we should take some time and enjoy this though. Best team in the North by what feels like a fairly wide margin, probably the youngest very good team in the NFL, and not only a legitimate Super Bowl threat, but also a threat to make this success sustainable. Even when the Lions were good in recent past years, it felt like it was talent they had lucked into (Stafford, Calvin, and Suh), surrounded by band aids and patchwork. This feels like a real team.

And the Packers are 2-5.  

Yeah, there's a fine line between enjoying the moment (and god knows that us long time Lions fans have earned it) and raising the bar as well.

I think there's a lot of merit to what you're saying about taking the time to enjoy this but there's also merit to what Tater is saying by raising expectations and expecting more when needed.

The window is just opening BUT in the salary cap NFL where there is so much roster turnover from year to year, you just don't know when you'll have a real opportunity again like the Lions currently have. 6-2 in an awful division with one of the easiest schedules in the NFL in the last 9 so I kind of feel like Holmes missed an opportunity to fill vital areas of need with, again, a good amount of draft capital to work with (4 picks in the first 3 rounds) and some cap flexibility to add a significant player.

Not only are they missing a guy opposite of Hutch especially with Houston hobbled even when he returns probably but they are hooped if Hutch goes down. Also, Will Harris is their next guy in line if Sutton or Jacobs goes down which we saw against Baltimore what occurs when that happens so Holmes standing pat makes the path to a SB that much harder especially when all the competitors added a significant player. There's also the matter of their young guys about to become much more expensive especially after next season as well as Goff so there's a small window here under Goff's current contract and the core guys on their rookie contract to take advantage of, basically a 2 year window before Sewell, St. Brown and Goff are all due for monster raises. The team is good, even very good perhaps, but I don't see this as a Superbowl contender as is with weak pass rush from the Front 4 against good teams and paper thin corner depth. When you're 6-2 headed into a manageable schedule, SB should become the bar I'd think so I think Holmes misread the room in this case by sticking with the patient approach.

[1984Echoes]

I have both points of agreement and points of disagreement with this sentiment.

Points of agreement:

1) I definitely think the bar has moved up to: How can we win a Super Bowl or 3? I mean, we haven't even won a single playoff game since 1991... but I don't care. I think we're there.

2) I agree that we are probably around 3rd best or so in the NFC; and then we'll have to face most likely a locked and loaded AFC opponent, if we are so lucky as to make it all the way to the SB... I raised this issue after we got crushed by the Ravens. The question was: What are we missing to help us get past the behemoth's of the NFL?

3) I'm in agreement with some of the pieces we are missing: A shutdown CB would be huge for this defense, and needed; and a speed rusher that can close on the QB is also a huge need. I agree we need more than just Hutch. Aside from that, there's always depth guys that can help (like an interior O-Lineman after all our injuries, another WR since Jamo hasn't gotten there yet (and Holmes landed on DPJ for that), a better placekicker if available, and... a long-snapper?!?!). If the price is right.

Points of disagreement:

1) And therein lies the rub. I think we are currently arguing over cost/ value. Or Cost-Benefit.

2) If we can't sign Sweat or Young to extensions; there is MORE value in letting Holmes make those picks then losing them for those players. IMO. Before that even: it appears Young would be a terrible culture fit with the Lions: he'd be a wasted draft pick if that is all true and he underperformed badly this season. But the key point to me is: MUST we SELL OUT to get Sweat or Young, THIS YEAR?

I believe the answer to that question isno, for several reasons:

Starting with: Young and Sweat are NOT all that. Young has health and attitude and scheme-responsible issues. NO THANKS. Sweat is an above-average DE. Great, he would probably improve the team some.

But he's not a lethal speed rusher. He's not much different than Hutch. If I'm selling out (1st round draft pick(s), I'm hunting Patrick Surtain II (shutting down an opponent's top receiver), or a pass-rusher that is younger, will stay with the team longer, and more consistently gets to the QB than Sweat. I actually suggested Sweat earlier in the season (a few weeks ago) but I was thinking 3rd rounder or later. To beat his actual trade price? I want Brian Burns or Maxx Crosby... who both ended up not getting traded.

I'd rather Holmes use our draft picks to find better, longer term players for the Lions than Sweat or Young.

And do we need to push for one of those deals THIS YEAR? That seems to be the urgency of a few in here...

But... whilst I believe our Super Bowl window is just starting to open... I don't believe panic moves are needed just yet. And I think Sweat/ Young, at their draft pick cost and future commitment to this team, are panic moves.

I am perfectly fine seeing how far we get in the playoffs this year; how far our current cast of characters grows this year (jam-packed with young kids who are still improving/ getting through learning curves). And making adjustments this offseason, including draft, trades, FA signings.

I do NOT believe it was worth it to better/beat the trades for either of those two guys.

Just my 2 cents.

OK... that was $2.98

[Jason_R]

3 hours ago, NYLion said:

Yeah, there's a fine line between enjoying the moment (and god knows that us long time Lions fans have earned it) and raising the bar as well.

I think there's a lot of merit to what you're saying about taking the time to enjoy this but there's also merit to what Tater is saying by raising expectations and expecting more when needed.

The window is just opening BUT in the salary cap NFL where there is so much roster turnover from year to year, you just don't know when you'll have a real opportunity again like the Lions currently have. 6-2 in an awful division with one of the easiest schedules in the NFL in the last 9 so I kind of feel like Holmes missed an opportunity to fill vital areas of need with, again, a good amount of draft capital to work with (4 picks in the first 3 rounds) and some cap flexibility to add a significant player.

Not only are they missing a guy opposite of Hutch especially with Houston hobbled even when he returns probably but they are hooped if Hutch goes down. Also, Will Harris is their next guy in line if Sutton or Jacobs goes down which we saw against Baltimore what occurs when that happens so Holmes standing pat makes the path to a SB that much harder especially when all the competitors added a significant player. There's also the matter of their young guys about to become much more expensive especially after next season as well as Goff so there's a small window here under Goff's current contract and the core guys on their rookie contract to take advantage of, basically a 2 year window before Sewell, St. Brown and Goff are all due for monster raises. The team is good, even very good perhaps, but I don't see this as a Superbowl contender as is with weak pass rush from the Front 4 against good teams and paper thin corner depth. When you're 6-2 headed into a manageable schedule, SB should become the bar I'd think so I think Holmes misread the room in this case by sticking with the patient approach.

This is the NFL. You simply cannot have backups for every one of your starters that guarantee you no drop off in production, and you certainly cannot acquire backups for every position in moves at the trade deadline. 

Yes, Detroit is 6-2 and headed into a manageable schedule. Philly is their top rival for the top seed but they are going up against Dallas, KC, Buffalo, SF, Dallas (again) and Seattle over the next six weeks. That will be a really tough stretch. By the end of it, Detroit may have the inside track on the top seed. Also, by that point Detroit may have Houston and CJGJ back on defense to give them a boost into the playoffs.

I’m sure Holmes knew the price on Young and everyone else and decided not to pay it. That is fine by me. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Jason_R

[holygoat]

On 11/1/2023 at 8:15 PM, 1984Echoes said:

 

DPJ is "brand new"? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Goff is not allowed to throw the ball to DPJ because he's "brand new"?

 

Yes, he's not allowed to throw to him. That's exactly what I was saying. [tony-stark-eye-roll.gif]

[Jimbo]

Great post 1984Echos.  I agree with most of what you said.  I feel like the Lions are looking for years of competitive football and they are ahead of the rebuild.  I really don't think the Lions when they traded Hock, thought they were going to compete for a playoff position last year.

Fact is we really don't know what the reasons are they didn't get Young or Sweat.  Is it possible that Lions weren't offered to match or better the young offer?  Maybe Wash though San Fran would have a better draft pick and the Lions weren't going to give a 2nd round pick.  Sweat would of had to been a 1rst round pick and again, I am sure they weren't willing to give that up for him.  Maybe it'll come out but usually no one really knows what happened.  Maybe the Lions just simply didn't want both or one of these guys at all.  We also don't know if the Lions were focused on other players that didn't work out (Crosby, Burns). 

As much as I have absolutely love having competency with the Lions management.  They aren't perfect.  They will be judged overall if they win a superbowl.  If they don't, its a failure.  Better than past regimes already, although you will be judged based on rings.  Dumars was a complicated GM.  Not sure if anyone else could of build the Pistons team that took them to 6 straight eastern conf finals.  Although I feel like his own mistakes and over confidence resulted in only 1 championship.  Should of been multiple championships.

[djhutch]

21 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

I agree we need more than just Hutch.

Bite your tongue.