Jump to content

2023-2024 Lions in Review


Recommended Posts

On 2/5/2024 at 9:37 AM, NYLion said:

No doubt that San Francisco was the more talented team but talent isn't why they lost the game. The Lions completely gave it away combined with bad luck, they weren't overwhelmed by any means. A drop on 4th down, a bounce off the helmet right into Aiyuk's hands, a fumble on a botched hand off, a drop on 3rd and 10 at 24-24, that's your ballgame right there in 4 quick botched plays in a matter of a few minutes. The Lions handed it to them on a silver platter, a honolulu blue and silver platter. The Niners got extremely lucky, flat out. One of the luckier wins that I've ever seen in a big game.

With that said, there's some critical areas of the team that absolutely need a talent infusion so you don't have guys like Vildor in a position to not make a play on a ball, a #2 like Sutton getting shredded weekly by top receivers and no pass rush unless you're sending extra guys.

Yes, a consistent pass rush was a huge problem. So was containment, Purdy had a few huge runs. And adding to the luck, don't forget the punt the Lions weren't able to down at the one yard line. That play was overlooked in the 49'er ability to comeback.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Who had the skill on that play, Aiyuk or Vildor? Vildor could have made a relatively easy play but blew it. Aiyuk had to make a relatively hard play and made it. That play really distilled the skill disparity between the teams that showed up throughout the game. 

Luck doesn’t explain anything but the inability to understand how talented and practiced a person has to be to make the play Aiyuk made. 

Pure, unmitigated, flukey luck. 90% of the league's receivers could make that catch after it bounced right back to him. Vildor deflects it even slightly, or it misses or deflects obliquely off the helmet, and there's no chance.

Edited by Longgone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Hongbit said:

Just curious, do you not believe in the concept of luck? 

The board has turned into this meme  😂

Do you not believe in the concept of skill? 

None of us has the skill that Jusczyk (a fullback!) had to haul in that tiptoe sideline catch, for example. (Can Detroit’s FB make a catch like that? Didn’t think so.)  

Just because we don’t have that kind of skill, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. SF made plays like that in the second half that Detroit didn’t make. Maybe it was bad luck that Gibbs fumbled. Or maybe holding onto the ball is a skill that Gibbs failed at in that instance  

The bigger point is that you don’t get to explain your own team’s success based on skill but the other team’s success based on luck. It is delusional and disrespectful to the opponent to say their victory in that game was pure luck when, over the course of the game and over the course of the season, SF did what just about everyone expected them to do — win the NFC. Did they get some lucky plays along the way? Sure. Did they get some unlucky plays, undoubtedly. But pretty much everyone agreed at the start of the season that they had the best roster in the NFC and that they were a or the leading candidate to win the NFC. They did it. Now that they did it, you can’t dismiss it as luck. They are a very good and resilient team. They did not quit when they got down early. They have the strongest roster in the NFC (though Detroit’s is suddenly very close). Hats off to them. 
 

image.thumb.png.ada0b2209fc6ce081124f529fc673161.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Longgone said:

Pure, unmitigated, flukey luck. 90% of the league's receivers could make that catch after it bounced right back to him. Vildor deflects it even slightly, or it misses or deflects obliquely off the helmet, and there's no chance.

Disagree. We see these kinds of plays all the time in the NFL. These guys are good. Beyond their natural talent, they have been practicing tip drills for years by the time they reach the pros. Maybe they can’t make that catch 100% of the time but just because we would make it 0% of the time doesn’t make it luck. But again, if Detroit has the better roster why didn’t our guy make the easy play when their guy made the hard play?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We want to talk about talent and how they have more of it, so let's do it. If Detroit had traded for Montez Sweat do we win that game? Does Sweat as a pass rusher have an impact on that game? Does he have an impact on Brock Purdy's ability to have more time in the pocket?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Disagree. We see these kinds of plays all the time in the NFL. These guys are good. Beyond their natural talent, they have been practicing tip drills for years by the time they reach the pros. Maybe they can’t make that catch 100% of the time but just because we would make it 0% of the time doesn’t make it luck. But again, if Detroit has the better roster why didn’t our guy make the easy play when their guy made the hard play?

If the 49ers had such a superior roster, why didn't Purdy make a better throw? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

The board has turned into this meme  😂

Do you not believe in the concept of skill? 

None of us has the skill that Jusczyk (a fullback!) had to haul in that tiptoe sideline catch, for example. (Can Detroit’s FB make a catch like that? Didn’t think so.)  

Just because we don’t have that kind of skill, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. SF made plays like that in the second half that Detroit didn’t make. Maybe it was bad luck that Gibbs fumbled. Or maybe holding onto the ball is a skill that Gibbs failed at in that instance  

The bigger point is that you don’t get to explain your own team’s success based on skill but the other team’s success based on luck. It is delusional and disrespectful to the opponent to say their victory in that game was pure luck when, over the course of the game and over the course of the season, SF did what just about everyone expected them to do — win the NFC. Did they get some lucky plays along the way? Sure. Did they get some unlucky plays, undoubtedly. But pretty much everyone agreed at the start of the season that they had the best roster in the NFC and that they were a or the leading candidate to win the NFC. They did it. Now that they did it, you can’t dismiss it as luck. They are a very good and resilient team. They did not quit when they got down early. They have the strongest roster in the NFC (though Detroit’s is suddenly very close). Hats off to them. 
 

image.thumb.png.ada0b2209fc6ce081124f529fc673161.png

Nobody denies the concept of skill exists.  There are plenty of people that don’t believe in luck.  

I have a friend who is an adamant luck denier.  We’ve debated it many times over beverages.  He makes some interesting points but has never been able to sway me.   Random luck definitely does exist.   I do agree that many things people view as luck are instead explained by skill, illusion, or most often, math  and science.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stop it y'all... you're BOTH pretty! You don't need to fight.

Seriously though, I think you're both sides here are arguing extremes and you don't need to. In any play there's gonna be some level of luck and some level of skill. The doink off the face mask is a perfect example.

If the Vildor was a more skilled player, maybe he catches that instead of it going right through his hands. If Aiyuk is a little less skilled, maybe he isn't able to track the ball as it doinked off Vildor's mask and he isn't able to make the catch. So yeah, CLEARLY there is skill involved.

But, there's a dozens different ways the ball could have bounced off Vildor's mask and only a few put the ball in an area that Aiyuk could catch it. So CLEARLY there is luck involved as well.

I think the 49ers probably are a bit more skilled as a team and this played a part in them being able to come back and win the game. I also think they got some lucky bounces and this played a part in them being able to come back and win. I think it's unlikely that skill alone would have been enough. I'm quite certain that the lucky bounces they got alone would not have been enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Disagree. We see these kinds of plays all the time in the NFL...

Here's some luck:

The ball bounces off Vildor's facemask. It bounces... Off to the right and bounces straight into the ground. End of play.

No wait, instead, it bounces straight into the air where Aisuk catches it and gets in for the TD.

Was the ball bouncing straight up into the air, instead of off to the side, and straight into the ground: Skill, or Luck?

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

Nobody denies the concept of skill exists.  There are plenty of people that don’t believe in luck.  

I have a friend who is an adamant luck denier.  We’ve debated it many times over beverages.  He makes some interesting points but has never been able to sway me.   Random luck definitely does exist.   I do agree that many things people view as luck are instead explained by skill, illusion, or most often, math  and science.

Of course luck exists. But it is silly to say that something almost everybody predicted from the beginning of the season was due to luck. 

And I agree with MB that the talent gap between Detroit and SF is smaller than many might have thought. Still, it’s hard to expect a defense that struggled against the pass all season to go to the Super Bowl.

Yes, probably a player like Sweat would have changed things but Holmes chose not to pay that price. I give him the benefit of the doubt.  

Edited by Jason_R
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jason_R said:

Disagree. We see these kinds of plays all the time in the NFL. These guys are good. Beyond their natural talent, they have been practicing tip drills for years by the time they reach the pros. Maybe they can’t make that catch 100% of the time but just because we would make it 0% of the time doesn’t make it luck. But again, if Detroit has the better roster why didn’t our guy make the easy play when their guy made the hard play?

No one said Detroit had the better roster. Does the team with the better roster always win? What is said is it took a series of improbable events and uncharacteristic play by Detroit for San Fran to win and that is the essence of luck. If you replay the Aiyuk scenario 100 times, Vildor makes the interception about 50 times and it falls incomplete about 49. That, sir, is luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Longgone said:

No one said Detroit had the better roster. Does the team with the better roster always win? What is said is it took a series of improbable events and uncharacteristic play by Detroit for San Fran to win and that is the essence of luck. If you replay the Aiyuk scenario 100 times, Vildor makes the interception about 50 times and it falls incomplete about 49. That, sir, is luck.

Go look at the Niners forum and see what they say about the first half. I’m sure their fans were talking about SF’s uncharacteristic defensive play, Purdy’s uncharacteristic interception, and how improbable it was that Detroit converted a 3rd and 9, 3rd and 10, and 3rd and 18. 

Detroit played a hell of a game, and yes, just like so many NFL games, a play here or there might have been the difference. Does that mean that every NFL season amounts to pure luck? No, the best teams have the skill to keep themselves in it and the best teams are more likely to make crucial plays that make the difference between winning and losing. That’s what happened in SF, just like everyone expected before the game and before the season.

You’re in denial if you attribute Detroit getting outscored by 20 points in the second half to luck. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was a nice season, but I wish there was a little more "we didn't reach out ultimate goal". Too much self congratulation for not actually making or winning a SB for my blood. The fans should be happy, but the FO and ownership can't feel like this is good enough going forward. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, ben9753 said:

Was a nice season, but I wish there was a little more "we didn't reach out ultimate goal". Too much self congratulation for not actually making or winning a SB for my blood. The fans should be happy, but the FO and ownership can't feel like this is good enough going forward. 

Going from not making the playoffs to a conference championship game is definitely a successful season. For the fans and the front office. And it gives us hope for next season, more hope than we've had in decades!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luck may have caused the Lions to lose all of the 17 point lead so suddenly in the 3rd quarter. But luck isn't what lost them the game. If the Lions are good enough to outscore the Niners by 17 points on the road in one half (imagine how angry Niners fans were at halftime for "coming out so unprepared for a huge game at home to be boatraced by an inferior opponent"), a desperate Niners team was good enough to outscore the Lions by 17 points over the course of a full half. The only real luck I see during the Niners comeback is the Aiyuk catch. The first 4th down drop, the Gibbs fumble, the second Reynolds drop, failing to down the punt at the 1, the 1st down throw into the endzone going through Jamo's hands, Purdy scrambling on 3rd and 4 with 5 minutes to go ... all that is down to skill/execution or lack of. 

Edited by lordstanley
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, lordstanley said:

If the Lions are good enough to outscore the Niners by 17 points on the road in one half (imagine how angry Niners fans were at halftime for "coming out so unprepared for a huge game at home to be boatraced by an inferior opponent"), a desperate Niners team was good enough to outscore the Lions by 17 points over the course of a full half.

That is essentially what I told my wife at halftime when she started to get excited.  I think we all knew it wasn't over, but I did not think it would unfold the way it did. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I couldn't copy and paste this, it kept failing to post. But this is a letter from Sheila that was sent to all season ticket holders.

Screenshot2024-02-06at9_21_38PM.thumb.png.11d2e109f7bc82b3436b0eb4030fc3df.png

Notice who this letter is signed by?   She is no longer Sheila Ford Hamp.  She dropped the Ford from her name on official team business sometime last year and look what’s happened.   This was Shiela’s best move to date narrowly beating out letting Chris Spielman hire MCDC and Brad. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Notice who this letter is signed by?   She is no longer Sheila Ford Hamp.  She dropped the Ford from her name on official team business sometime last year and look what’s happened.   This was Shiela’s best move to date narrowly beating out letting Chris Spielman hire MCDC and Brad. 

I do think it's interesting. A 73-year-old namesake of one of the most recognizable brands in the world doesn't just wake up and do that one day without any backstory... Might even have nothing to do with the Lions, but there is some drama in there somewhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I do think it's interesting. A 73-year-old namesake of one of the most recognizable brands in the world doesn't just wake up and do that one day without any backstory... Might even have nothing to do with the Lions, but there is some drama in there somewhere.

could be. Or could be she thinks she's now notable enough in her own right she doesn't have to advertise that she's a Ford to get people's attention?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

could be. Or could be she thinks she's now notable enough in her own right she doesn't have to advertise that she's a Ford to get people's attention?

Maybe. Would be an odd move for a franchise that still has the initials of one of the worst owners in professional sports' history on their sleeves, ten years after his death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...