Coronavirus: Already In a Neighborhood Near You

[pfife]

Marshall's paraphrase is totally reasonable. 

[ewsieg]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Still, You would think that the FBI director would use cautious and better constructed language instead of awkward phrasing which is going to send his target audience into hysteria.    

I guess my question is what did he do wrong?  Gain of function medical research and bioweapons research can be identical in procedure with the only difference being the intent of use.  I would expect the FBI to be focused on the bioweapons angle.  Maybe it's not so much that he made something sound scary, but that the topic itself is scary and he just accurately described it.

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

but that the topic itself is scary and he just accurately described it.

something to this. But the weapons angle doesn't really make a lot of sense tactically or strategically - I think that aspect is as much a matter of fevered minds as engineered fever inducers.

[Motown Bombers]

So if China was making a biological weapon, it once again would be dependent on Trump being too incompetent to handle it. Plus, China released it within their own borders when they could have easily smuggled it into the US and released it instead of in their own country and relied on Trump being too incompetent with a headstart on the virus. 

[Tigeraholic1]

5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

So if China was making a biological weapon, it once again would be dependent on Trump being too incompetent to handle it. Plus, China released it within their own borders when they could have easily smuggled it into the US and released it instead of in their own country and relied on Trump being too incompetent with a headstart on the virus. 

You are right I am sure. But say the next time, they vaccinate their entire population ahead of releasing a virus? Role it out as a flu shot or something. Sounds outlandish but say this was a test? 

[pfife]

Trump also commended Xi's handling of coronavirus dozens of times in the early days.   We should reelect a guy complimenting the development of a bio weapon used against us.

[pfife]

10 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

You are right I am sure. But say the next time, they vaccinate their entire population ahead of releasing a virus? Role it out as a flu shot or something. Sounds outlandish but say this was a test? 

Seems like putting anti vax ppl in power is a splendid idea in this scenario

[Tiger337]

24 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I guess my question is what did he do wrong?  Gain of function medical research and bioweapons research can be identical in procedure with the only difference being the intent of use.  I would expect the FBI to be focused on the bioweapons angle.  Maybe it's not so much that he made something sound scary, but that the topic itself is scary and he just accurately described it.

“The origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential lab incident"

Most likely a potential?  How is that not confusing?

"So here you're talking about a potential leak from a Chinese government-controlled lab that killed millions of Americans and that's precisely what that capability was designed for. "

I know what he's saying here, but the phrasing made it sound like there was a leak specifically designed to kill millions of Americans.  For one thing, Europeans were killed first.  Americans were not specific targets.  Second, the leak was most likely not designed to kill millions of people.  And no, he didn't quite say all of that, but his words could easily be misinterpreted and I believe that was by design.  He gave Fox News what they wanted to hear while allowing himself a hedge.  That's not I want from an FBI director.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ewsieg]

24 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

something to this. But the weapons angle doesn't really make a lot of sense tactically or strategically - I think that aspect is as much a matter of fevered minds as engineered fever inducers.

 

19 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

So if China was making a biological weapon, it once again would be dependent on Trump being too incompetent to handle it. Plus, China released it within their own borders when they could have easily smuggled it into the US and released it instead of in their own country and relied on Trump being too incompetent with a headstart on the virus. 

I feel like you guys are making the jump that if it was a 'bioweapon' and not just scientific research than that also means it was purposely released as well and I don't see Wray saying that.  And to point out again, bioweapon vs gain of function for good purposes can be defined in the eye of the beholder.  In fact the scientists at the lab performing the work may be doing it for all the right reasons (assuming this was the case here) and China military/national security may simply be tracking for their own purposes.  I would hope our own national security organizations have their ears to the ground for any new technology, medical or not, that could be used with malintent.  

 

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, ewsieg said:

 

I feel like you guys are making the jump that if it was a 'bioweapon' and not just scientific research than that also means it was purposely released as well and I don't see Wray saying that.  And to point out again, bioweapon vs gain of function for good purposes can be defined in the eye of the beholder.  In fact the scientists at the lab performing the work may be doing it for all the right reasons (assuming this was the case here) and China military/national security may simply be tracking for their own purposes.  I would hope our own national security organizations have their ears to the ground for any new technology, medical or not, that could be used with malintent.  

 

I personally don't care about the origin of COVID. I just like how the conspiracy origin from Trump supporters relies on them basically acknowledging the conspiracy only works if Trump was too incompetent. 

[Tigeraholic1]

6 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I personally don't care about the origin of COVID. I just like how the conspiracy origin from Trump supporters relies on them basically acknowledging the conspiracy only works if Trump was too incompetent. 

Now that the pandemic is over the origin is kind of important no? I don't see too many Trump supporters here unless you just speaking in general?

[ewsieg]

12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

“The origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential lab incident"

Most likely a potential?  How is that not confusing?

I'll give you that, but I don't think it's as confusing as you make it out to be.  If everyone on this site nitpicked a sentence like this this forum would be nothing but Biden bashing.

12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

"So here you're talking about a potential leak from a Chinese government-controlled lab that killed millions of Americans and that's precisely what that capability was designed for. "

I know what he's saying here, but the phrasing made it sound like there was a leak specifically designed to kill millions of Americans.  For one thing, Europeans were killed first.  Americans were not specific targets.  Second, the leak was most likely not designed to kill millions of people.  And no, he didn't quite say all of that, but his words could easily be misinterpreted and I believe that was by design.  He gave Fox News what they wanted to hear while allowing himself a hedge.  That's not I want from an FBI director.  

He never said no one else was affected, but his job is to protect Americans, so I'm not going to scrutinize his statement here to have a deeper meaning when he should be focused on exactly what he's saying here.  

 

[ewsieg]

18 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I personally don't care about the origin of COVID. I just like how the conspiracy origin from Trump supporters relies on them basically acknowledging the conspiracy only works if Trump was too incompetent. 

I'm not following.  Are you saying you believe any talk of lab leak is conspiracy still or that if we go the route that it was a lab leak in China, that it was due to Trump's incompetence?

[Tiger337]

11 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I'll give you that, but I don't think it's as confusing as you make it out to be.  If everyone on this site nitpicked a sentence like this this forum would be nothing but Biden bashing.

He never said no one else was affected, but his job is to protect Americans, so I'm not going to scrutinize his statement here to have a deeper meaning when he should be focused on exactly what he's saying here.  

 

We'll just have to disagree on this.  I thought it was awkwardly stated and confusing and I believe it was deliberate. 

And I think Biden is a poor speaker too, but I don't think he does it deliberately (not usually).   

[gehringer_2]

24 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I'm not following.  Are you saying you believe any talk of lab leak is conspiracy still or that if we go the route that it was a lab leak in China, that it was due to Trump's incompetence?

If you want to stretch the point, it can be argued that the US/NIH have been less than clear on gain of function research policy over the years (not the least driven by ambitious *US* researchers) and that a clearer more carefully constructed policy on GOF by the US research establishment and funders would likely have had a certain amount of influence all over the world, including Wuhan. In the *most* general sense you can certainly lay some of the ambiguity on GOF on US administrations who over the years have appointed political hacks with bad agendas and 'kill the beast' mentalities to US scientific agencies. This is for sure a 100,000 ft level critique, but I'm just pushing a point that a lot of things have consequences that appear many miles down the road and in unforeseeable places when the US makes bad decisions for bad reasons.

And Xi is probably dealing with the same kind of realizations on his own end. Whatever else is true about his ethics and political ambitions, he's no fool, he has no interest in killing his own people (even if he only sees that as the Han Chinese), and he's had enough scientific education (probably more than the average US president) to have some appreciation of what happened, the how and why.

Edited March 3, 2023 by gehringer_2

[ewsieg]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

And Xi is probably dealing with the same kind of realizations on his own end. Whatever else is true about his ethics and political ambitions, he's no fool, he has no interest in killing his own people (even if he only sees that as the Han Chinese), and he's had enough scientific education (probably more than the average US president) to have some appreciation of what happened, the how and why.

To be honest, I didn't even think there were legitimate voices saying that Xi demanded the release of this virus on his people knowing it would eventually target the US.  Even early on when it was tough to even say 'lab leak' without looking like a tin hat, everything I saw was in regards to someone in the lab getting it on accident and spreading it unknowingly.  

But to some, if it's important to lay the blame on Trump before they will go the route of accepting even the option that this was lab leak, I may not understand that, but go for it.  

To me the origin was important if it was out of the lab.  And honestly at this point, confirming that doesn't matter as long as all people realize it definitely could have come from the lab.  The reason I believe it's important can be summed up by re-reading your first paragraph from the post I responded to.  Better administration is needed to either ensure it doesn't happen again or even if it didn't happen this way, to help ensure it won't in the future either.

[gehringer_2]

14 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

 But to some, if it's important to lay the blame on Trump before they will go the route of accepting even the option that this was lab leak, I may not understand that, but go for it.  

 

TBH - I would say Shrub did more damage to the efficient function of the US government bureaucracy than even Trump did. 'W''s cabinet and admin picks were some of the worst in history. He was the pathfinder for any bad appointment choice you can lay at Trump's feet. Alito was his too, so he gets credit for a judge at least as crazy as any Trump appointed.

Edited March 3, 2023 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

TBH - I would say Shrub did more damage to the efficient function of the US government bureaucracy than even Trump did. 'W''s cabinet and admin picks were some of the worst in history. He was the pathfinder for any bad appointment choice you can lay at Trump's feet. Alito was his too, so he gets credit for a judge at least as crazy as any Trump appointed.

I love alternate history. Imagine one where Rehnquist lives a few years longer, assuming he doesn't leave before 2009.  Roberts was originally nominated to replace O'Conner.  She was going to leave upon a confirmation.  Then Rehnquist died and Bush withdraws that nomination and renominates him to replace Rehnquist.  Who would Obama have picked in 2009 to not only replace Rehnquist but as Chief Justice?

 

[Tiger337]

23 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

But to some, if it's important to lay the blame on Trump before they will go the route of accepting even the option that this was lab leak, I may not understand that, but go for it.  

 

I would say that any blame on Trump for the number of deaths is speculative.  He handled the pandemic like he has handled everything in the last 40+ years - like a spoiled irresponsible child.  But I can't say we would have had fewer deaths if someone else were President.  We just don't know with any level of certainty.  

[ewsieg]

ahh, ok, Covid response.   I thought Motown was saying that if we want to believe the lab leak theory we must also accept that Trump had responsibility in that he couldn't contain it to China or force Xi not to do it.

As far as Covid response, yeah, lots of blame can be handed out and Trump shouldn't be excluded.   With the benefit of hindsight, many good faith actors have some blame as well.

[Tiger337]

6 hours ago, ewsieg said:

ahh, ok, Covid response.   I thought Motown was saying that if we want to believe the lab leak theory we must also accept that Trump had responsibility in that he couldn't contain it to China or force Xi not to do it.

As far as Covid response, yeah, lots of blame can be handed out and Trump shouldn't be excluded.   With the benefit of hindsight, many good faith actors have some blame as well.

That's a big stretch.  However, If it happened during Biden's presidency, I am 100% sure that MAGAs would have blamed it on him. You can't honestly say that they wouldn't.  As it is, I think I've seen them blame it on Hunter!   

[Tiger337]

6 hours ago, ewsieg said:

ahh, ok, Covid response.   I thought Motown was saying that if we want to believe the lab leak theory we must also accept that Trump had responsibility in that he couldn't contain it to China or force Xi not to do it.

As far as Covid response, yeah, lots of blame can be handed out and Trump shouldn't be excluded.   With the benefit of hindsight, many good faith actors have some blame as well.

I don't know if you can really blame anyone in particular.  On one hand, We lagged behind many developed countries in preventing Covid and Covid deaths.  On the other hand, we lag behind developed countries in many aspects of health care.  So, it could just be an extension.   

[Motown Bombers]

 

[oblong]

I read about that last night.  He'd been taking the horse dewormer since 2012?

 

[Biff Mayhem]

Cute. Dude died of a heart attack. Is there any legitimate information that confirms his death was related to Covid or Ivermectin? Or....was dude unhealthy and all of this is unrelated?

50 year old dude in poor health dying of a heart attack is unfortunate but not uncommon.