MichiganCardinal Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 47 minutes ago, Cruzer1 said: You're going off other people's opinions, and questioning my opinion? Thanks. You can take out the one sentence about scouting reports I’ve seen and everything else is just factual (180-reception 1st round prospect TE from Notre Dame vs. 7-reception undrafted TE from Notre Dame). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 4 hours ago, Longgone said: No, I said there was justification for upgrading the position and I wouldn't bitch about it, not that i wanted or expected it. Mostly I strenuously disagree with your premise that no upgrade is needed for the specious reasons you offered. I have never argued against upgrading the position. I have, in fact, offered specific players and draft picks exactly for upgrading. You are misrepresenting my position. It's just that... You and I have different definitions of upgrading the TE position. And I have offered no specious reasons whatsoever. Quit trying to bullshit everyone. Or I will straight call you out for being full of shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I have never argued against upgrading the position. "And they are absolutely, perfectly fine with mediocre TE's." "the Lions are perfectly content to go with Mitchell, Wright & Zylstra again next year." who's full of bullshit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruzer1 Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 2 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said: You can take out the one sentence about scouting reports I’ve seen and everything else is just factual (180-reception 1st round prospect TE from Notre Dame vs. 7-reception undrafted TE from Notre Dame). I don't think he runs well. He (Mayer) can catch the ball, but he doesn't separate. I think Mitchell is also talented, and might take off having a full healthy camp. The one TE that interests me this year is Washington from Georgia. He is a great blocker, like having a 3rd tackle, which the Lions use a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 9 minutes ago, Longgone said: "And they are absolutely, perfectly fine with mediocre TE's." "the Lions are perfectly content to go with Mitchell, Wright & Zylstra again next year." who's full of bullshit? I mean, they traded away Hockenson so they could go with mediocre TEs so I think they are fine with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruzer1 Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 9 minutes ago, Longgone said: "And they are absolutely, perfectly fine with mediocre TE's." "the Lions are perfectly content to go with Mitchell, Wright & Zylstra again next year." who's full of bullshit? Talent wise a pretty good group. Not great, but young and cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 18 minutes ago, Cruzer1 said: I don't think he runs well. He (Mayer) can catch the ball, but he doesn't separate. I think Mitchell is also talented, and might take off having a full healthy camp. The one TE that interests me this year is Washington from Georgia. He is a great blocker, like having a 3rd tackle, which the Lions use a lot. Fair enough. We are on the same page there then. I too would much prefer Washington to Mayer. I think he fits the team better, has a higher ceiling, and will be available in the 2nd, maybe even 3rd round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 15 minutes ago, Cruzer1 said: Talent wise a pretty good group. Not great, but young and cheap. Cheap, below average talent-wise, and certainly upgradeable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: I mean, they traded away Hockenson so they could go with mediocre TEs so I think they are fine with it. Or, they were 1-6 and unhappy with Hockensons performance, and made a decision they were not going to re-sign him, so they got something for him of value for the future. Edited February 20, 2023 by Longgone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, Longgone said: Or, they were 1-6 and unhappy with Hockensons performance, and made a decision they were not going to re-sign him, so they got something for him of value for the future. Holmes made the comment after the trade that they would have traded Hock if they were 6-1 or 1-6. I think he was being at least a little flippant with that comment, but I don't think the regime was ever interested in re-signing Hockenson long-term. Whether that means they don't value the position of a primarily pass-catching TE at all, or whether it means they just don't value paying $15MM plus AAV for that position, or whether it means they don't value paying TJ Hockenson $15MM plus AAV, remains to be seen. If I had to guess it would be a combination of #2 and #3. Meaning they're cool with having a TE on a rookie deal who can catch passes, and they're maybe cool with paying a Travis Kelce type a big contract if they have him, but they're not going to pay big money to Hock, who is not and will never be Kelce. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 1 minute ago, MichiganCardinal said: Holmes made the comment after the trade that they would have traded Hock if they were 6-1 or 1-6. I think he was being at least a little flippant with that comment, but I don't think the regime was ever interested in re-signing Hockenson long-term. Whether that means they don't value the position of a primarily pass-catching TE at all, or whether it means they just don't value paying $15MM plus AAV for that position, or whether it means they don't value paying TJ Hockenson $15MM plus AAV, remains to be seen. If I had to guess it would be a combination of #2 and #3. Meaning they're cool with having a TE on a rookie deal who can catch passes, and they're maybe cool with paying a Travis Kelce type a big contract if they have him, but they're not going to pay big money to Hock, who is not and will never be Kelce. The point is, using the fact they traded Hockenson as rationale for maintaining mediocre tight ends is absurd. Any position you upgrade gives you a competitive advantage, and tight end is not somehow exempt from that or of lesser importance, despite the fact that you managed to scheme around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Longgone said: That's not at all my argument. Of course some other position groups may more desperately be in need of an upgrade. But you don't overlook the tight end position if that player is the best value on your board, and that position is not currently a strength in your system, and you certainly don't pass them up for the illogical reasons that you have presented, presuming that you know how Holmes and Campbell value tight ends. They have plenty of young TEs all in development stage and it has to be be explained again that the TE is not featured heavily in the passing game here. Not only would be a reach positionally but it would also be pointless, again in this offense, to waste a high pick on a tight end. Running back is different, they are a heavy running/play action team so getting a bell cow runner that can also catch the ball out of the backfield (and be available and relatively healthy unlike Swift) would be a boon for this offense and an understandable use of a 1st rounder if they choose to go that route. Taking a tight end in the 1st makes no sense for most teams but especially for this team. Edited February 20, 2023 by NYLion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagnam Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 2 hours ago, Longgone said: The point is, using the fact they traded Hockenson as rationale for maintaining mediocre tight ends is absurd. Any position you upgrade gives you a competitive advantage, and tight end is not somehow exempt from that or of lesser importance, despite the fact that you managed to scheme around it. If we could upgrade the longsnapper should we overdraft one? TE just simply don’t have the value to be drafted that high. There are clearly exceptions, but when was the last time an exception was identified and taken in the first round? Clearly TE is a position that nobody has successfully cracked, or the ones that have cracked it know the best player will last because only stupid teams draft a first round TE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 28 minutes ago, sagnam said: If we could upgrade the longsnapper should we overdraft one? TE just simply don’t have the value to be drafted that high. There are clearly exceptions, but when was the last time an exception was identified and taken in the first round? Clearly TE is a position that nobody has successfully cracked, or the ones that have cracked it know the best player will last because only stupid teams draft a first round TE. No one is saying draft one in the first round, or overdraft one, only that the position group is weak and worthy of upgrade. And no, TE as a position does not lack value, its a very important position, it's just that a complete one is hard to find. It's stupid to compare it to a long snapper. But to follow your logic, guard is not as valuable as tackle, does that mean you shouldn't bother to upgrade a mediocre guard position group? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 2 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said: Holmes made the comment after the trade that they would have traded Hock if they were 6-1 or 1-6. I think he was being at least a little flippant with that comment, but I don't think the regime was ever interested in re-signing Hockenson long-term. Whether that means they don't value the position of a primarily pass-catching TE at all, or whether it means they just don't value paying $15MM plus AAV for that position, or whether it means they don't value paying TJ Hockenson $15MM plus AAV, remains to be seen. If I had to guess it would be a combination of #2 and #3. Meaning they're cool with having a TE on a rookie deal who can catch passes, and they're maybe cool with paying a Travis Kelce type a big contract if they have him, but they're not going to pay big money to Hock, who is not and will never be Kelce. as you say, i dont think they traded hock because they didnt like him or tight ends that can stretch the field, its that they didnt want to pay him after this season and he was valuable enough to get something back in trade. also, st brown's emergence sort of made hock expendable. they both operate in the same spaces. theyre also both going to have to get paid. so they traded one of them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 1 hour ago, NYLion said: They have plenty of young TEs all in development stage and it has to be be explained again that the TE is not featured heavily in the passing game here. Not only would be a reach positionally but it would also be pointless, again in this offense, to waste a high pick on a tight end. And it needs to be explained again that a premium TE , would be an integral part of this offense, because a top te can create mismatches that can't be replicated with other positions. If you don't think Johnson and Campbell would take advantage of that, you're nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 It never felt like Quinn had much of a drafting strategy. He stayed out and picked who the mock drafts said to pick. Holmes seems not to value LBs and TEs. They are not on the field all the time, and their body types are not particularly rare. Sewell is a physical freak and they were thrilled he fell to them. Same with Hockenson. Jaymo is a physical freak and he went up to get him. It is interesting to think about what Holmes would have done had he been GM when Hock was drafted. Probably Ed Oliver or trade down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 20, 2023 Author Share Posted February 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, Jason_R said: It never felt like Quinn had much of a drafting strategy. He stayed out and picked who the mock drafts said to pick. Holmes seems not to value LBs and TEs. They are not on the field all the time, and their body types are not particularly rare. Sewell is a physical freak and they were thrilled he fell to them. Same with Hockenson. Jaymo is a physical freak and he went up to get him. It is interesting to think about what Holmes would have done had he been GM when Hock was drafted. Probably Ed Oliver or trade down. I think Holmes may well have have taken anyone of Ed Oliver, Brian Burns or Montez Sweat. Clearly Oliver hasn't lived up to the hype, but I think Burns or Sweat lined up with Hutch on this defense would have been a plus for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 9 minutes ago, Longgone said: And it needs to be explained again that a premium TE , would be an integral part of this offense, because a top te can create mismatches that can't be replicated with other positions. If you don't think Johnson and Campbell would take advantage of that, you're nuts. Then why didn't they do it with Hockenson? He had averaged nearly 2.5 targets more per game in Minnesota and over 2 more receptions per game in Minnesota and was on pace for over 100 catches with Minnesota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 11 minutes ago, Jason_R said: It never felt like Quinn had much of a drafting strategy. He stayed out and picked who the mock drafts said to pick. Holmes seems not to value LBs and TEs. They are not on the field all the time, and their body types are not particularly rare. Sewell is a physical freak and they were thrilled he fell to them. Same with Hockenson. Jaymo is a physical freak and he went up to get him. It is interesting to think about what Holmes would have done had he been GM when Hock was drafted. Probably Ed Oliver or trade down. I think Quinn was building a team better suited for the 90's. Big and physical but lacks speed and athleticism. He liked offensive lineman and was frankly pretty good at drafting lineman. Decker, Ragnow, Jackson, and Glasgow turned out to be good picks. Looking at his other picks, he went for size and physicality over speed and athleticism like Tavai, A'Shawn Robinson and Golladay. I also think he wanted a running oriented team by drafting guys like Kerryon Jonson and Swift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Then why didn't they do it with Hockenson? He had averaged nearly 2.5 targets more per game in Minnesota and over 2 more receptions per game in Minnesota and was on pace for over 100 catches with Minnesota. They did, he had 43 targets in 7 games and 84 targets in 12 games in '21, that's a pretty key component, yet I think he frustrated them to some degree. And this is not to mention the added value to the run game that a TE brings, an area where I believe Hockenson was also short. Edited February 20, 2023 by Longgone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 The jury is almost back on Holmes and Co. philosophies on drafting and building a football team. We should have a good amount of data after this offseason to make some logical judgements. One observation is they seem to like guys with college production that pop out on the tape even if they may be undersized or just average combine and workout numbers. If faced with a choice of a physical freak with lapses of disappearing in games versus a slower, smaller guy that constantly made plays, they would most likely take the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 CBS sports just put out their 2022 redraft and an amazing 4 Lions picks ended up going in the 1st round in the re-draft. Aidan stayed at number 2(Sauce went 1) followed by Rodrigo, Joseph in the 20s and rounding out the 1st they had us taking Jamo with the Rams pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 20, 2023 Author Share Posted February 20, 2023 36 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: CBS sports just put out their 2022 redraft and an amazing 4 Lions picks ended up going in the 1st round in the re-draft. Aidan stayed at number 2(Sauce went 1) followed by Rodrigo, Joseph in the 20s and rounding out the 1st they had us taking Jamo with the Rams pick. That is great to see that people actually would want the guys we drafted. That is a positive indictment on Holmes and the front office he assembled. Did the redraft happen to say where Josh Paschal would have went? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYLion Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Longgone said: And it needs to be explained again that a premium TE , would be an integral part of this offense, because a top te can create mismatches that can't be replicated with other positions. If you don't think Johnson and Campbell would take advantage of that, you're nuts. Amon Ra is an elite slot guy so that's where most of the catches down the middle will go and they already have TE's that create mismatches in the red zone. Unless there's a TE available that is generational and you HAVE TO take him, it's a waste of a 1st rounder because a Tight End will never be the featured receiver in this offense. Hockenson was a top 10 TE, some would argue close to top 5, and he barely moved the needle here. Edited February 20, 2023 by NYLion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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