Tiger337 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 11 minutes ago, CMU97 said: Don't forget about Dave Rozema, who won 15 games as a 20-year-old rookie in 1977. He threw 218 innings that year. In 1978 he threw 200 more. Arm issues ensued, and he was never the same. Back then, and well before and after, I think the pitchets were blamed for their injuries. I don't know if "overuse" for a young pitcher was ever thought of. I have long suspected that Fidrych's injury was caused more by overuse than trying to compensate for his knee injury. Probably Rozema too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMU97 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 22 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I have long suspected that Fidrych's injury was caused more by overuse than trying to compensate for his knee injury. Probably Rozema too. Wow! I don't remember looking at his usage before, but wow. 34 innings in rookie ball at age 19, 170 innings at age 20 over 3 levels, and then 250 I'm MLB at age 21. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 12 minutes ago, CMU97 said: .... 34 innings ..., 170 innings..., and then 250 in MLB at age 21. 34-170-250... That would be the culprit methinks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 1 hour ago, CMU97 said: Wow! I don't remember looking at his usage before, but wow. 34 innings in rookie ball at age 19, 170 innings at age 20 over 3 levels, and then 250 I'm MLB at age 21. “Pitch count? Innings limits? What in the GD hell are you talking about?!?!” -Ralph Houk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 3 hours ago, Tenacious D said: “Pitch count? Innings limits? What in the GD hell are you talking about?!?!” -Ralph Houk Yes, good old Ralph, "who had managed the Yankees to World Series wins" lol!!!, was hired as a caretaker of the mid-70's crap teams while the best of the Bill Lajoie drafts was still percolating in the minors, and then when his time was up after 1978 and I so so very desperately wanted the job to go to Jim Leyland but they gave it to Les Moss instead, I was crushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 14 hours ago, Jim Cowan said: Malloy in particular has nothing left to prove, he has a .420 OBP at every level. If that means he can do .375 in the majors he needs to be there. Speaking of nothing left to prove: as I think more about it—and I know I suggested less than a day ago we have no place to put him—Malloy's got a real shot to win the left field job, since Riley won't be playing the field next season and Baddoo hasn't exactly locked it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 13 hours ago, Tiger337 said: I have long suspected that Fidrych's injury was caused more by overuse than trying to compensate for his knee injury. Probably Rozema too. And conversely, Nolan Ryan was under 200 IP his first 4 years in the Majors. Tanana was over 250 3 times before he was 23. Does make you think, 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gilmore Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 Maybe I missed it, where is the story that Greene will DH for all of 2024? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 (edited) It's just a guess with him coming off TJ surgery. I don't know if he'll be DH only all year, but I expect him to spend a lot of time there, especially at the beginning of the season. Edited September 23, 2023 by Tiger337 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 31 minutes ago, chasfh said: Speaking of nothing left to prove: as I think more about it—and I know I suggested less than a day ago we have no place to put him—Malloy's got a real shot to win the left field job, since Riley won't be playing the field next season and Baddoo hasn't exactly locked it down. Third base is not locked down either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 37 minutes ago, chasfh said: Baddoo hasn't exactly locked it down. I don't expect Baddoo to make next year's team. It will be a bad sign of lack of progress if he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 15 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: It's just a guess with him coming off TJ surgery. I don't know if he'll be DH only all year, but I expect him to spend a lot of time there, especially at the beginning of the season. It’s his non-throwing arm. How do you even rehab it? Just rub some dirt on it and get back on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 Just now, Tenacious D said: It’s his non-throwing arm. How do you even rehab it? That's a good point about it being his non-throwing arm. Batting might be more of a problem than fielding. As far as rehab, he'll need need to regain strength and mobilty in his arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted September 23, 2023 Author Share Posted September 23, 2023 2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: And conversely, Nolan Ryan was under 200 IP his first 4 years in the Majors. Tanana was over 250 3 times before he was 23. Does make you think, I did not know that about Ryan and that ****s alll over the old school talk about todays pitchers being pansies and not real men like Nolan. Then they bitch that he never won a Cy Young and if you ask when should he have won they just being career stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 21 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: I imgine part of the issue is trying to figure out cycle time. Not saying it can't be done but that I don't think any team has ever sat down and figured it out. They know they want to keep a guy throwing 100 pitches on 5 days, they know they can use a guy at 15-25 pitches 2 days out of 3, but what is the proper cycle and rehab cycle for a guy throwing in the range of 45-70? 21 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: Once every 3 or 4 days. Faedo on Monday, Holton on Tuesday, 1-inning guys on Wednesday... back to Faedo. I know it doesn't work out exactly like that... I'm just surmising here... LaRussa tried this for a short time in Oakland. Cycling through the pitching staff with guys throwing 3 innings a piece, and having a closer and maybe a set up or long man at his disposal if needed. It didn’t last very long at all, maybe a few weeks. The game has certainly changed since then, but is there anything to take from that experiment to today’s game? Having a bullpen of multi inning abilities doesn’t mean they have to go multiple innings in each appearance. But it just opens up the options on a day to day basis. That’s kind of why I’m intrigued about a bullpen with Faedo, Holton, Brieske, etc. They seem to be able to put together stints that they could go through the lineup once pretty effectively. And I’m not a fan of reliever roulette. I think (although I could be wrong) that bridging the 6th through 9th with fewer arms would eliminate that. Sure, one of those guys could go kaploohey on any given night, but you just bring someone else in at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 19 minutes ago, oblong said: I did not know that about Ryan and that ****s alll over the old school talk about todays pitchers being pansies and not real men like Nolan. Then they bitch that he never won a Cy Young and if you ask when should he have won they just being career stats. Ryan was also used as a RP a bit in his earlier years. I’d like to know what his pitch counts were then. Without diving deeply, I think he had a higher BB9 throughout his career. It was definitely higher in his earlier seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 Ryan's a freak and I am pretty sure that he was lifting weights, and denying it, back when people like Sparky Anderson would fine you if they found out about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 1 minute ago, Jim Cowan said: Ryan's a freak and I am pretty sure that he was lifting weights, and denying it, back when people like Sparky Anderson would fine you if they found out about it. Robin Ventura disagreed with him once. Everyone else just wisely let him be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 IIRC....in the 70's the Tigers had a minor league pitching coach that taught everyone to throw a change up with an unusual grip....maybe that contributed to the arm issues that Rozema Fidrych and Morris all had Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 2 hours ago, casimir said: ... Cycling through the pitching staff with guys throwing 3 innings a piece, and having a closer and maybe ... I didn't mean that. I meant having 5 regular starter going 5-6 innings, with a couple of long guys instead of ONLY 1-inning guys, and using those long guys every time there's a 5-inning start, or an extra's game, or even in a rotation/ 6-inning game like I had it to save wear and tear on the 1-inning guys, etc... Your list of Faedo, Holton & Brieske is perfect, And, mainly... this is what I wanted to prevent (aside from saving W&T on the shorter inning guys): 2 hours ago, casimir said: ... I’m not a fan of reliever roulette. I think (although I could be wrong) that bridging the 6th through 9th with fewer arms would eliminate that. Sure, one of those guys could go kaploohey on any given night, but you just bring someone else in at that time. Agree 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 4 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: I don't expect Baddoo to make next year's team. It will be a bad sign of lack of progress if he does. Agreed, which is why I think Malloy might have an inside track to win left field to start with. Especially since he has been terrible at third base—basically, worst in the International League, through yesterday, of any third baseman with over 250 innings logged there: That's the worst fielding percentage, 35th of 35 guys, and the only guy in the eight hundreds, and his range factor is fifth worst, and he has among the most innings played there. On the other hand, Colt Keith has far superior rate stats albeit in far fewer innings: only one error in 173.2 innings, range factor of 2.24, which would put him about middle of the pack in the list above. Now, here is an interesting thing I learned from game logs: The Tigers used Malloy as the regular third baseman from start of the season up to May 29, during which he started 36 of his first 50 games there, the other 14 at DH. Then, starting May 31, he almost never started at third: in his next 59 games through August 22, he started only three games at third, while starting 29 games in left, 15 games in right, and DHing 12 other times. Since then, he has once again started mostly at third, 20 of 25 games, the rest of DH. During the period he wasn't playing third, Keith spent a decent amount of time there. Obviously, he hasn't since. So, I don't know whether they found something in his play and he has improved in his second stint there, versus his first stint, or not. Maybe someone who's plugged in to what's going on with our AAA team can fill us in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: And conversely, Nolan Ryan was under 200 IP his first 4 years in the Majors. Nolan Ryan pitched 226 innings in his first three major league seasons, and 358 in his first four. But even summing it up like this is doing a lot of heavy lifting of the point: he also pitched 120 innings in the minors as an 18-year-old, and another 202 innings in the minors, plus three in the majors, as a 19-year-old. That's 327 innings of professional ball pitched as a teenager. Ryan then pitched another 34 in the minors as a 20-year-old before suffering an arm injury that team doctors actually recommended surgery for, but Ryan refused, I guess because back in those days, he could. he rehabbed it himself as he saw fit, after which he transformed into the freak we all know. I wonder how he rehabbed himself into that? 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, casimir said: LaRussa tried this for a short time in Oakland. .. Maybe what is shifting that would make the 3 inning guys on regular schedules more viable is that it's becoming more predictable that your starters are NOT going to go more than 5-7. When starters still did, or at least teams still planned like they hoped they were going to go 8 or 9 inning, it was hard to plan to use guys in regular long relief because the use pattern would be too erratic. If the Tigers start Skubal, Manning, Olson, and a couple of back end guys, you could go ahead and just bank on never using any of them more than 7, usually 6. Now you have regular slots to put your 3 IP guys into. I think in reality we've already had this situation for a while now but baseball people don't really want to admit to themselves that the complete game is an anachronism that is just best forgotten about when planning pitching deployments. The bonus would be that if you get your BP guys working 100 ip/year instead of 50-60, you will reduce the number of pitchers you have to carry which improves average quality and opens up rosters room for more hitters. Edited September 23, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 44 minutes ago, chasfh said: So, I don't know whether they found something in his play and he has improved in his second stint there, versus his first stint, or not. Maybe someone who's plugged in to what's going on with our AAA team can fill us in? I'm open to a solid report on the subject also. In it's absence, I would guess that Malloy got back to 3rd because they decided they wanted Keith at 2B, both for the experience and possibly also to save wear and tear on the arm, which reportedly may still not be 100% since the injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted September 23, 2023 Share Posted September 23, 2023 24 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I'm open to a solid report on the subject also. In it's absence, I would guess that Malloy got back to 3rd because they decided they wanted Keith at 2B, both for the experience and possibly also to save wear and tear on the arm, which reportedly may still not be 100% since the injury. Wonder is that is also driving the decision to have Jung play 3B in the AFL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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