Summer 2023 Off-Season Thread

[slothfacekilla]

Put in Osgood now you cowards!

I have been watching a ton of old Red Wings footage on awood's youtube and it is making me appreciate Osgood a lot, he had some really big moments for the team.  I'm all for him getting in the hall after originally being ambivalent about it.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

what are you going to trade to get debtincat and dubois?  

This years first round picks, Zadina, and a prospect like Albert Johansson would be my initial offer. Maybe these are just rumors on the internets, but it seems like Debrincat out of Ottawa. I don't know how much leverage they have to command the haul everyone thinks they might get hit him.

[slothfacekilla]

New theoretical trades from me for fun...

Debrincat for Zadina and a future top 10 protected first round pick, throw in a later pick at some point if it helps get it done

PLD for this draft's two first round picks, Berggren and Wallinder

 

I don't actually love the idea of acquiring PLD.  He's a really good player but he seems...moody and it will cost a lot if you have an extension in place with him I'm sure.  If he would want to be in Detroit then I would trust Yzerman's read but he has been a headache for both the franchises he's played for so far.  I wonder how much this opening up of the PLD sweepstakes is the Jets trying to make  Montreal pay more.

 

edit the more I think about it that's too much for PLD I think.  Maybe if Hellybuyk wants to be here he could get included.  I feel pretty good about the DeBrincat one.

Edited June 21, 2023 by slothfacekilla

[buddha]

tater is willing to sell the farm, your brothers farm, and your sisters farm to get debrincat!  come on tater, is 2019 patrick kane coming too?

i'll take my chances with the picks over that.  i wouldnt trade both first rounders for either pld or debrincat, much less two picks plus wallinder.

i'll give you #17 and zadina for debrincat.  final offer.  who can beat that offer and sign him to an extension?  if ottawa wants to roll the dice and let him walk for nothing, so be it. 

for pld i'll give you #17, boston's first, johannsen and zadina.  make montreal beat that offer.  and that's only if i can get him to sign an extension.  and like you said, that's only if stevie thinks he can get him to play for you.  if not, no deal.

[Shinzaki]

17 and Zadina probably doesn't get it.  Would 17 Zadina and on of our 2nds?  

[buddha]

1 hour ago, Shinzaki said:

17 and Zadina probably doesn't get it.  Would 17 Zadina and on of our 2nds?  

i'd do it.

i'm not sure who else is bidding.  ottawa may just keep him and then trade him at the deadline, but that risks him getting injured or sucking.

[slothfacekilla]

Today ESPN proposed 17, Mazur and Vancouver's second round pick the Wings own this draft for DeBrincat

[Mr.TaterSalad]

On 6/21/2023 at 6:34 PM, buddha said:

tater is willing to sell the farm, your brothers farm, and your sisters farm to get debrincat!  come on tater, is 2019 patrick kane coming too?

i'll take my chances with the picks over that.  i wouldnt trade both first rounders for either pld or debrincat, much less two picks plus wallinder.

i'll give you #17 and zadina for debrincat.  final offer.  who can beat that offer and sign him to an extension?  if ottawa wants to roll the dice and let him walk for nothing, so be it. 

for pld i'll give you #17, boston's first, johannsen and zadina.  make montreal beat that offer.  and that's only if i can get him to sign an extension.  and like you said, that's only if stevie thinks he can get him to play for you.  if not, no deal.

There is likely going to be a bidding war for Debrincat as he doesn't have a NTC in his contract I don't believe. So if there are lots of teams interested, and Ottawa then has leverage to shop him around, you can't start off a deal with #17 + a washed out prospect in Zadina. My guess is Ottawa would want either both firsts and a prospect or our pick at #9 + a prospect + Zadina at minimum. Maybe my deal was too rich to start, but with as many teams that are likely going to be in on Debrincat, no way do I think #17 + an underachieving prospect like Zadina gets it done.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[buddha]

13 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

There is likely going to be a bidding war for Debrincat as he doesn't have a NTC in his contract I don't believe. So if there are lots of teams interested, and Ottawa then has leverage to shop him around, you can't start off a deal with #17 + a washed out prospect in Zadina. My guess is Ottawa would want either both firsts and a prospect or our pick at #9 + a prospect + Zadina at minimum. Maybe my deal was too rich to start, but with as many teams that are likely going to be in on Debrincat, no way do I think #17 + an underachieving prospect like Zadina gets it done.

he's on the last year of his contract before he becomes an unrestricted free agent.  he's coming off a down year which, coincidentally, happened as soon as he moved away from patrick kane.  he has told ottawa he will not re-sign with them.  so they sell him now or get nothing in a year, or wait until the deadline and take a trade for likely a low first round pick.  last year he went for #7 and a second rounder.  this year he is less valuable than that.

he said he'll go to detroit, dallas, nashville, florida, or vegas.  only one of those teams has cap space to trade for him.

there is zero reason to give up the farm to trade for debrincat.  if you want to give up the farm, go get keller or try for kyle connor, two better players signed to cheaper deals. debrincat should not cost that much and i doubt there will be a bidding war.  if there is, detroit should pass.

[slothfacekilla]

Elliotte Friedman (who is on record saying that he hates floating Red Wings rumors so I usually perk up when he mentions Detroit) wondered on his last podcast if Detroit is one of the teams checking in on Konecny from the Flyers.  26 years old, 2 years left on his deal at $5.5 million a year.  61 points in 60 games on a really bad Flyers team last year is pretty impressive, though he doesn't seem to be consistent points-wise throughout his career.  I thought he was a little bigger than he is, but it might not be a bad "budget" option for a trade.

[Shinzaki]

No to Mazur in a DeBrincat deal...yes to 17, 2nd rd pick and Cross Hanas

[slothfacekilla]

I would be shocked if Cross Hanas moved the needle more than Zadina (or at all) for any team.  FWIW it is Frank Seravalli who floated the rumor that he doesn't think the Sens will be able to get a significant roster player and that Zadina is the best they can do.  So I've just been building off of that for my ideas.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

If multiple teams are after Debrincat would we not agree that a potential ensuing bidding war would drive up the price? If we do agree, what is the max you're willing to give up to get him if a bidding war breaks out? I'm willing to do our pick at #9 and potentially pair #17 with that as well because we need NHL-ready talent that can score now. I'm also willing to part with certain, top prospects like an Albert Johannsen in a trade deal, again, because we desperately need NHL-ready talent who can score. 

[buddha]

6 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If multiple teams are after Debrincat would we not agree that a potential ensuing bidding war would drive up the price? If we do agree, what is the max you're willing to give up to get him if a bidding war breaks out? I'm willing to do our pick at #9 and potentially pair #17 with that as well because we need NHL-ready talent that can score now. I'm also willing to part with certain, top prospects like an Albert Johannsen in a trade deal, again, because we desperately need NHL-ready talent who can score. 

every year you see a shiny new toy that you want to trade the farm for him.  last year it was shane wright, this year its debrincat.

no way in heck i'm trading two first round picks for debrincat.  he went for less than that LAST YEAR and now he's coming off a worse season and one year closer to free agency and has publicly said he will not sign with ottawa.

jesus, tater.  are you the worst poker player of all time?  lol.

[buddha]

reports of a big deal between st louis and philly.  hayes going to the blues.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

20 hours ago, buddha said:

every year you see a shiny new toy that you want to trade the farm for him.  last year it was shane wright, this year its debrincat.

no way in heck i'm trading two first round picks for debrincat.  he went for less than that LAST YEAR and now he's coming off a worse season and one year closer to free agency and has publicly said he will not sign with ottawa.

jesus, tater.  are you the worst poker player of all time?  lol.

We're in the bottom 10 in goals per game at 2.89, bottom 10 in total goals at 237, bottom 10 in total assists at 403. I was all for tanking and rebuilding when we got rid of Holland. We did that and unfortunately didn't have an ounce of draft lottery luck, which sucked and slowed down our rebuild a small bit.

We're now 4 years into the Yzerman regime and at some point we have to start adding NHL ready talent who can put the puck in the net. Debrincat is one of those guys. He's a multi-time 40+ and 30+ goal scorer and has had over 60 points 3 times in his career. If I have to throw in an extra pick or a pick and a prospect to do it, I'm willing to do so. If we aren't aggressive in doing what we can to add NHL ready talent now, then when is the time? I'm not saying we have to be stupid like Holland was with signing Frans Nielsen to a crazy contract. We can be both aggressive in trying to acquire a goal scorer or two and smart at the same time with the contract we offer.

Do we continue the rebuild into next year? 2023-2024? 2024-2025? I'm all about tanking to rebuild when it makes sense, but that time period seems to be coming to an end for us. How long are you willing to continue the rebuild before you want to start adding NHL ready talent?

Furthermore, do you believe the player we are drafting at #9 + Albert Johansson or another non-Kasper/Edvinsson prospect will be more productive than Debrincat? If so, are you willing to wait 2-4 years for the player we draft at #9 this year plus Johansson/other prospect to be better than Debrincat?

If you don't want to wait to bring in NHL ready goal scorers, but aren't willing to do what it takes to get Debrincat, then who do you plan on adding? Alex Killorn? Ryan O'Reilly? Baby Bert? Vladimir Tarasenko? Travis Konecny? Ross Colton?

Edited June 24, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Mr.TaterSalad]

On 6/23/2023 at 2:40 PM, Shinzaki said:

No to Mazur in a DeBrincat deal...yes to 17, 2nd rd pick and Cross Hanas

Buddha thinks I'm crazy for being willing to give up the pick at #9 and #17 to get Debrincat. If a bidding war ensues between the Wings and another team or two or three, is it really that unrealistic of a thing to do? What are the odds that the players we draft at #9 or #17 will be as good or better than Debrincat? 

[gehringer_2]

36 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

What are the odds that the players we draft at #9 or #17 will be as good or better than Debrincat? 

That is the question.  It all depends on how good Yzerman is, or believes he is, at picking players. He did get a probable perennial all-start at 6. It already seems probable all 4 of his 1st round picks have or will get to the NHL so I think you have to say that in Yzerman's hands, 1st round picks are worth a lot. Certainly a lot more than we got used them being worth under Holland.

and just for reference, Debrincat was himself a 2nd round pick (39 th overall). And Buddha makes a very good point about his production being down without Kane. Remember we thought we had some shiny value in Abdelkater, and it turned out it was just reflection off Datsyuk.

Edited June 24, 2023 by gehringer_2

[1984Echoes]

Make a play to re-sign Bertuzzi....?

Or shoot for better?

[Dan Gilmore]

I think Yzerman is smart enough to not overbid, which I think would be the case of offering both first round picks (+) for Debrincat. Start with an offer of the 17 plus a player, be ready to add one second round pick, or substitute the player to a slightly better one, but don’t bid against yourself. Not every team that would like Debrincat is in a position to do so cap-wise. Or at least without significant hassles.

[buddha]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

That is the question.  It all depends on how good Yzerman is, or believes he is, at picking players. He did get a probable perennial all-start at 6. It already seems probable all 4 of his 1st round picks have or will get to the NHL so I think you have to say that in Yzerman's hands, 1st round picks are worth a lot. Certainly a lot more than we got used them being worth under Holland.

and just for reference, Debrincat was himself a 2nd round pick (39 th overall). And Buddha makes a very good point about his production being down without Kane. Remember we thought we had some shiny value in Abdelkater, and it turned out it was just reflection off Datsyuk.

two first round picks for debrincat is stupid.  if another team wants to pay two first round picks in a loaded draft for a player on the verge of unrestricted free agency who has openly said he'll only sign with certain teams and was traded for ONE FIRST ROUND PICK two years ago, well....i have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you.

debrincat is not worth two first round picks.  that's stupid.  its tater being tater and doing the most sports radio hot take thing possible.  again, last year it was trading multiple first rounders for shane wright, this year its multiple first rounders for debrincat.  no, no, NO.

The wings have not been lottery lucky.  so you either become a team that kills you with depth, or you mortgage it all for a star.  debrincat is a good player, but he is not a player you mortgage it all for.  #17, zadina (or equivalent but not mazur or lombardi) plus a second should be more than enough.  if not, sign debrincat next year when he's a udfa.  take the two first rounders in a loaded draft with a gm who has been very good at identifying and developing top talent.  i'll do that all day over debrincat.  one first, maybe.  two?  insanity.

if you want to mortgage the farm for a player it has to be keller or connor or elias petersson or someone like that.  not a small winger whose production fell considerably once he was removed from being on a line with an all time great offensive player.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

so you either become a team that kills you with depth,

BTW - something Yzerman has a lot of 1st person experience with.

[slothfacekilla]

On 6/24/2023 at 4:28 PM, gehringer_2 said:

Remember we thought we had some shiny value in Abdelkater, and it turned out it was just reflection off Datsyuk.

This is an absolutely wild comparison.  DeBrincat shot the second lowest shooting percentage of his career with his worst PDO.  His average time on ice dropped almost two minutes a game too, a pretty large chunk. His underlying possession numbers were still really good and he put up 66 points and 27 goals on his "bad" season.  People acting like he's a bum at 25 years old after an unlucky season is crazy to me.  I definitely agree his trade value is seriously diminished because he needs a long term deal that not many teams can afford and he told Ottawa he won't re-sign there, but I think y'all are going too hard on this idea that he is a nobody away from Patrick Kane.  Kane's points seriously dropped away from DeBrincat (35 point decrease!) so where's the argument that Kane needed DeBrincat?  I'm trying to find the other players that Kane beefed up points-wise on the Blackhawks last season before his trade to New York and I am also coming up empty there.   Surely if DeBrincat was just a product of Kane someone would have stepped in and taken his place? 

[slothfacekilla]

Both Marek and Friedman said on their podcast they expect DeBrincat to end up in Detroit, one hold up is that Yzerman doesn't like the full term of DeBrincat's desired contract.

[buddha]

1 minute ago, slothfacekilla said:

This is an absolutely wild comparison.  DeBrincat shot the second lowest shooting percentage of his career with his worst PDO.  His average time on ice dropped almost two minutes a game too, a pretty large chunk. His underlying possession numbers were still really good and he put up 66 points and 27 goals on his "bad" season.  People acting like he's a bum at 25 years old after an unlucky season is crazy to me.  I definitely agree his trade value is seriously diminished because he needs a long term deal that not many teams can afford and he told Ottawa he won't re-sign there, but I think y'all are going too hard on this idea that he is a nobody away from Patrick Kane.  Kane's points seriously dropped away from DeBrincat (35 point decrease!) so where's the argument that Kane needed DeBrincat?  I'm trying to find the other players that Kane beefed up points-wise on the Blackhawks last season before his trade to New York and I am also coming up empty there.   Surely if DeBrincat was just a product of Kane someone would have stepped in and taken his place? 

i dont think he's a product of kane, but i dont think he's a 40 goal scorer without a top center.

with that said, you could say that about a lot of players!  

and my overall point with debrincat is that his value is diminshed by his contractual circumstances and that his last year was not as good as his previous years.  he's not worth two first round picks to me.  he's not worth a top 10 pick this year to me.