buddha Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 we definitely could use some good news on the farm front after a disappointing beginning in grand rapids. good to see things are picking up! really excited about danielson, asp, and augustine. excited to see who we can trade cossa for. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Cossa hatred mystifies me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Me too. I'd rather be excited about a Cossa/ Augustine tandem... As soon as we can get that to the Red Wings. (Cossa 2024-25, Augustine 2025-26... ?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 i dont hate cossa. i think he was overdrafted, but it is what it is. if we can trade him for defensive help - or goalie help - immediately, i would do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordstanley Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 It was dumb to use a 1st round pick on Cossa. Goalie development is too much of a crapshoot. Why pick someone who MIGHT make the NHL in Year 5 after his draft (Year 3 currently) when you a choose from goalies with NHL experience? Remember the Wings using a #1 pick on Tom McCollum in 2008? Played 3 NHL games in his career. I actually liked the efforts Yzerman made in finding Ned and Husso. Neither really panned out to expectations, but cost little and we can keep trying. There is no surefire way to get a strong goalie. Edmonton and Toronto have been trying for years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothfacekilla Posted January 4 Author Share Posted January 4 Right now I'm holding onto the Cossa lottery ticket and letting him develop. I don't think he would command a ton of value on the trade market right now because his development is so up in the air. I am not saying he's a bad prospect but I don't see him being able to fetch a NHL ready player that would be worth it. I could definitely be wrong, I'm sure there are GM's that still see former first round pick + physical traits and are intrigued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothfacekilla Posted January 4 Author Share Posted January 4 Ryan Whitney and Chiclets have really been pumping ASP's tires this World Juniors, calling him the next Swedish defensive super star. The kid just has such a nice release on his shot....gives me Rafalski vibes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 34 minutes ago, lordstanley said: ... Why pick someone who MIGHT make the NHL in Year 5 after his draft (Year 3 currently) when you can choose from goalies with NHL experience? ... Like Nedjelekovic? Or Husso? And how are they doing so far? Or are you talking Alex Lyon? 35 minutes ago, lordstanley said: .... There is no surefire way to get a strong goalie. ... Right. This statement is more accurate. So what has Stevie Y done to try and get a top-notch goalie to Detroit? Traded for Ned and Husso, signed Lyon as a FA, drafted Cossa in the 1st and Augustine in the 2nd. I approve ALL of those moves in the search for great goaltending in Detroit. Why the big whinefest about drafting Cossa in the 1st? I don't get it. Leave no stone unturned. And let Stevie take his best shots, in ANY WAY possible... and hopefully 1 or 2 of these guys stick. If he thought Cossa was a 1st rounder he wanted to take a shot at then just let's see what happens with him. He just needs to get ONE of these calls right, including Cossa. And I could care less about McCollum. That says absolutely nothing to me. That's my 2 cents anyways... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothfacekilla Posted January 4 Author Share Posted January 4 FWIW I didn't take that as a whinefest, some people just don't see any value in taking a goalie in the first round which I can sort of understand as it is more risky than any other position. I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle of the pack on goalies in the first round, wary but open to it. I was shocked at the Cossa pick (I have to come clean and say I wanted Wallstedt) but Wallstedt did go five picks after Cossa so if you wanted either of those guys you had to use a first rounder. But I also definitely get why Yzerman did what he did with Cossa, you can't teach his athletic gifts. Plus the Vasilevsky pick really helped push the Lightning franchise forward previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Well... You can call it complaining or whatever.... Like you, I just don't understand it. Cam Ward, Tuukka Rask, Roberto Luongo, Carey Price, Andrei Vasilevsky, Marc-Andre Fleury, Grant Fuhr, Martin Brodeur...? If we draft one of these 1st rounders... there will be those who are upset because we used a 1st rounder on a goalie? Yeah, I just don't get this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 3 hours ago, buddha said: i dont hate cossa. i think he was overdrafted, but it is what it is.... At least this is a bit different... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 17 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Well... You can call it complaining or whatever.... Like you, I just don't understand it. Cam Ward, Tuukka Rask, Roberto Luongo, Carey Price, Andrei Vasilevsky, Marc-Andre Fleury, Grant Fuhr, Martin Brodeur...? If we draft one of these 1st rounders... there will be those who are upset because we used a 1st rounder on a goalie? Yeah, I just don't get this... the hit rate on goalies is much much smaller than on any other position, that's why i wouldnt draft one in the first round. cossa is a project with a capital P. he's a big, athletic giraffe, flailing about at the net. its a high risk, high reward risky pick. i wouldnt have made it. i think augustine is a better prospect right now than cossa, he's had more international experience at a younger age than cossa and performed better while doing it. cossa may have a higher ceiling simply because of his size, but i dont think you have to be 6'6 to be a good goalie. being a good goalie is more about positioning and quickeness. augustine seems to have that in spades. and a mid 2nd round pick is a better place to find your goalie, leave the first round for the skaters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 hours ago, lordstanley said: It was dumb to use a 1st round pick on Cossa. Goalie development is too much of a crapshoot. Why pick someone who MIGHT make the NHL in Year 5 after his draft (Year 3 currently) when you a choose from goalies with NHL experience? Remember the Wings using a #1 pick on Tom McCollum in 2008? Played 3 NHL games in his career. I actually liked the efforts Yzerman made in finding Ned and Husso. Neither really panned out to expectations, but cost little and we can keep trying. There is no surefire way to get a strong goalie. Edmonton and Toronto have been trying for years. cossa, berggren and a second/third round pick could net you a decent defenseman, imo. especially if its someone with salary who the wings can afford (right now, before they extend seider and raymond). speaking of which, i saw max's piece today saying he sees raymond getting 7 years at 7m aav and seider in the 8 years 8.7m range. that cap space is going to go pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Im not a huge fan of the don't take x in the first philosophy. People chided Holmes forr taking Gibbs,Campbell and Laporta so highly because of their positions...where would the Lions be without them? If a guy is high enough on your list to draft...take him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 https://dobberprospects.com/2020/05/24/nhl-draft-pick-probabilities-by-position/?ref=pensionplanpuppets.com take your goalies in the top 5 or the second/third round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 3 hours ago, buddha said: cossa, berggren and a second/third round pick could net you a decent defenseman, imo... Cossa is not required to be traded in order to get a decent defenseman. You can get the EXACT same defenseman with Berggren, a second/third round pick, and Eemil Viro. And that's an overpay. (Pending FA). A younger guy with a couple years before FA is Wallinder and a 1st plus Berggren...). And I'm pretty certain that you KNOW Stevie Y is not going to trade Cossa. For a decent defenseman. 7 hours ago, buddha said: ... if we can trade him for ...goalie help - immediately, i would do it. Let's turn this around: Which NHL goalie do you believe Cossa should be traded for? Meaning... the goalie is available/the other team wants to trade him, and a he'd be a significant upgrade over Husso/ Lyon (a 1A starting goalie instead of a backup 1B-type.) And a Cossa package would get him. Edited January 5 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 24 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Cossa is not required to be traded in order to get a decent defenseman. You can get the EXACT same defenseman with Berggren, a second/third round pick, and Eemil Viro. And that's an overpay. (Pending FA). A younger guy with a couple years before FA is Wallinder and a 1st plus Berggren...). And I'm pretty certain that you KNOW Stevie Y is not going to trade Cossa. For a decent defenseman. Let's turn this around: Which NHL goalie do you believe Cossa should be traded for? Meaning... the goalie is available/the other team wants to trade him, and a he'd be a significant upgrade over Husso/ Lyon (a 1A starting goalie instead of a backup 1B-type.) And a Cossa package would get him. 1) i do not "know" that yzerman isnt trading cossa. in fact, i would not be surprised if he was traded if the wings start playing better and get back into contention. if they don't get closer to the wc by the deadline, then i do not think any prospects will be traded this year. seeing cossa traded in the offseason wouldnt surprise me in the slightest. 2) i dont know who is available. but their goaltending has been awful and is costing them a playoff spot this year, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Right... But the points are: 1) A team with a top-notch goalie is just not going to trade him. They're too hard to come by. 2) If there were some extenuating circumstances... maybe. But those guys would be easy to spot: IE: A pending Goalie FA that is asking for the moon on a team that just cannot afford it... Is there someone out there like that? Because if not, then there's no reason to trade Cossa. It's just wishful thinking with no basis in reality whatsoever. 3) A team asking for Cossa in a trade for a top goalie... says something about Cossa, right? Well... whatever that says about Cossa... Stevie doesn't already know that? 4) Lastly, Stevie has already stated that he's building through the draft and adding around the edges. He's stated multiple times that the fans gotta be patient. Patience, patience, patience... is what he has preached all along. That means: He's not trading Edvinsson, or Cossa, or Danielson, or Augustine, or Pellikka, or possibly not even Johansson or Wallinder; although, with the plethora of LH'ed defenseman we've got maybe he'll look at 1 or 2 of those guys as expendable for the right guy. But not the top prospects, like Edvinsson. Not gonna happen. He traded Kubalik, Sebrango, a 1st and a 4th for DeBrincat. Marginal guys. That means Veleno, Berggren, several LH'ed defenseman (or even RH'ed, like Viro, if it's for the right guy...), or other non-key guys, maybe even a Mazur or a Lombardi... but NOT top prospects. I'm just being realistic here. What makes you think Stevie will want to trade Cossa? The Org is VERY high on him, even though he still has a lot of learning/ growth curve yet. So, there's no realistic scenario in trading him except for fan's wishful thinking. And IF there was a trade of Cossa, it'd have to be a TOP Goalie... which is the other key problem: those guys are NEVER available.. so who? If you DON'T have an answer to this.. then he's NOT getting traded. Reality. Wanting to trade Cossa... for reasons... just does NOT add up, based on reality. IMO. Not emotion. Reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 hours ago, buddha said: https://dobberprospects.com/2020/05/24/nhl-draft-pick-probabilities-by-position/?ref=pensionplanpuppets.com take your goalies in the top 5 or the second/third round. Following probabilities in drafting would imply your org has no advantage in talent eval. But if you assume that you can likely also assume your team isn't going very far anyway. I think 84 has it right - what we are seeing is that Yzerman knows championship teams need great goaltending to he's covering as many options to find one as he can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 6 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: Following probabilities in drafting would imply your org has no advantage in talent eval. But if you assume that you can likely also assume your team isn't going very far anyway. I think 84 has it right - what we are seeing is that Yzerman knows championship teams need great goaltending to he's covering as many options to find one as he can. 84 has a very long history of overrating every prospect his favorite teams have (see tigers, detroit). drafting any nhl player is a crap shoot. drafting goalies in round one has been less successful than drafting any other position. that is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 4 hours ago, buddha said: 84 has a very long history of overrating every prospect his favorite teams have (see tigers, detroit). drafting any nhl player is a crap shoot. drafting goalies in round one has been less successful than drafting any other position. that is all. Lee always argues not to take pitchers in the Baseball draft because of the wastage rate, but in the end you still have to have them, and you have to have goalies. Since good goalies don't get traded, it really doesn't matter if the probability of finding one in the draft is lousy, you still need to look for them. Copper ore is harder to find than iron ore, doesn't mean you can stop looking for copper because iron won't replace copper. Position players can't replace your goalie, you still need draft them. You can try to trade for them, but since they are harder to find than skaters, they will cost you more in trade-so the value prop ends up the same. That's what a market does. The only draft round rule I would ever take as a good hard rule is don't look for QBs outside the top of the draft Edited January 5 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordstanley Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Whinefest? The Wings have missed the playoffs 7 years in a row and their record this year so far is similar to this time 2 years ago. Fine, I get why, plus the Wings have built up a lifetime of goodwill with 4 Cups and 25 years of playoffs. So I can’t think of a fanbase of any team in any sport that is being as patient with their team and their GM as Wings fans are. We’re giddy over the Lions and Wolverines, while the Pistons have captured attention for being historically bad, so the Wings have lucked out by having their bad December stretch played in relative obscurity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 2 minutes ago, lordstanley said: Whinefest? ... That was only in reference to drafting Cossa in the 1st. There's seems to be an abundance of whin... errr, complaining about that. As for the Wings struggling to get back to the playoffs... I'm (me myself and I) whining loudly about that. But I do get Stevie's request for patience and having to wait for a bunch of these prospects to pan out or not... In order to build a core of a playoff team. So... I'm willing to be patient for Edvinsson and Cossa and Augustine and Danielson and... It kills... but it's also required (patience) IMO. Like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Lee always argues not to take pitchers in the Baseball draft because of the wastage rate, but in the end you still have to have them, and you have to have goalies. Since good goalies don't get traded, it really doesn't matter if the probability of finding one in the draft is lousy, you still need to look for them. Copper ore is harder to find than iron ore, doesn't mean you can stop looking for copper because iron won't replace copper. Position players can't replace your goalie, you still need draft them. You can try to trade for them, but since they are harder to find than skaters, they will cost you more in trade-so the value prop ends up the same. That's what a market does... This is a key point. Gotta have them (QB's, goalies, starting pitchers) and they're hard to obtain, especially the best ones that get your teams wins. So... get them wherever you can find them. It's what Stevie, Holmes, and (GASP!!!) Avila have done. In Avila's case, Harris now has to turn Avila's less than stellar end results into an actual competitive team. In Holmes' case... Dan Campbell has kicked ass and bitten off kneecaps. In Stevie's case: We're stuck with that dreaded word "Patience" whilst we see which of his prospects turn into Cinderella's and which turn into pumpkins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 25 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Lee always argues not to take pitchers in the Baseball draft because of the wastage rate, but in the end you still have to have them, and you have to have goalies. Since good goalies don't get traded, it really doesn't matter if the probability of finding one in the draft is lousy, you still need to look for them. Copper ore is harder to find than iron ore, doesn't mean you can stop looking for copper because iron won't replace copper. Position players can't replace your goalie, you still need draft them. You can try to trade for them, but since they are harder to find than skaters, they will cost you more in trade-so the value prop ends up the same. That's what a market does. The only draft round rule I would ever take as a good hard rule is don't look for QBs outside the top of the draft im not against drafting goalies, i'm just against drafting them in round one. 🙂 i liked the augustine pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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